tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post1651130593293559815..comments2024-03-29T11:13:02.267+00:00Comments on Bruce Charlton's Notions: Modern non-religious spirituality either depends absolutely on memory; or else depends on the obliteration of memoryBruce Charltonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-47667372203592113212014-10-19T07:19:13.518+01:002014-10-19T07:19:13.518+01:00@NF - It is possible to spend years trying to deve...@NF - It is possible to spend years trying to develop a model of non-religious spirituality, trying to be the first person who succeeded where previously everybody failed. Adding to the complexity of what is aimed at, cycles within cycles - becoming so complex that it is un-understandable, un-evaluable by intuitive grasp - and spirituality becomes like studying an academic subject - always just out of reach. But anything valid for Man must be lucid to Man - there is no reason why spirituality would be complex to explain or hard to understand in terms of aims (hard to do, yes - but it should not be hard to understand what you are trying to do). When explanations become long, complex - or when the explanation contains as 'answers' abstractions which are harder to understand than the original question being asked - then you are on the wrong track. Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-87916108552718122902014-10-19T04:45:51.749+01:002014-10-19T04:45:51.749+01:00Nicholas I am genuinely interested to know about y...Nicholas I am genuinely interested to know about you - where u are from, what you do, how old and what draws you to BGC's blog! Of course I understand if you don't want to answer.<br /><br />(Not even specific personal characteristics just say from England, carpenter, thirties or something)Donaldnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-91501709710038595882014-10-18T19:30:31.152+01:002014-10-18T19:30:31.152+01:00@NF - Essential unity is not love - love is betwee...<i>@NF - Essential unity is not love - love is between persons. I agree that essential unity cures suffering - so does death (if death involves obliteration of the self). <br /><br />I also agree that we should strenuously aim to eliminate false selves - but that is not the point at issue. It is the elimination of self as such which I was discussing.<br /><br />As Arkle made clear to me, the elimination of self in a state of impersonal assimilated bliss is very probably allowed by God to those who do not want a personal relationship with Him (in a general sense, all religions get what they want) - but to live with the objective of eliminating suffering/ attachment is anti-life, and only the fear of being mistaken about death being an end of consciousness is a rational deterrent against suicide.</i><br /><br />I am going to play with another synthetic view, and that is the idea of the boundary conditions between God and man being plastic and elastic, such that man can be informed and emotionally close to ecstatic bliss, and not overwhelmed to the extend of annihilation. Posit that somewhere between the two extremes of hard distinction and disintegration there is the potential of telescoping - in a manner similar to how one can change perspective while viewing an unfolding visual representation of a fractal.<br /><br />The individual provides a local mirror, but one which has the potential to morph and carry memory to allow a more complex and nuanced view which is intimate but not to the point of negation. Movement - changes of state - through time or some analog thereof, (e.g. iteration), provides an infinitely rich field of potential. The direction may be somewhat clear, but the specificity of state is not - a spiritual Heisenburg's Principle of Uncertainty. I can know where I am headed but not necessarily precisely where I am or the reverse, and more often smeared between the two extremes.<br /><br />The idea of the essential as static and complete in itself, (or as it is called in Kabbalah, "Ein Sof") is not at odds with an unfolding of its qualities through time. Time and the individual moving through time become the means of experiencing the field of possibilities that is complete but inexhaustible in terms of what is essential. The universe and its contents unfold what is hidden or latent in the essential, and does not imply an insufficiency of the essential. The argument against a complete and sufficient deity is often phrased in terms of the requirement of stasis. It may be static in itself, but projection / instantiation is the means of it realizing its fullness as though viewed through a million-million-million shifting and morphing mirrors - of which each individual is but one. It may in a sense be holographic.<br /><br />Again, I am just playing with ideas here, but it may stimulate some other interesting thinking.Nicholas Fulfordnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-86395671907166212252014-10-18T18:16:28.031+01:002014-10-18T18:16:28.031+01:00@P - Jung is that father of New Age spirituality, ...@P - Jung is that father of New Age spirituality, and God plays not role in the spiritualities derived from Jung. God may or may not be mentioned in a kind of as-if, metaphorical or honorific way, but has no metaphysical function: is not part of the basic set-up of reality. Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-38312232449827791692014-10-18T18:16:20.540+01:002014-10-18T18:16:20.540+01:00@P - Jung is that father of New Age spirituality, ...@P - Jung is that father of New Age spirituality, and God plays not role in the spiritualities derived from Jung. God may or may not be mentioned in a kind of as-if, metaphorical or honorific way, but has no metaphysical function: is not part of the basic set-up of reality. Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-31289405119612412762014-10-18T16:32:36.075+01:002014-10-18T16:32:36.075+01:00I am somewhat stunned by your opening:" Becau...I am somewhat stunned by your opening:" Because modern spirituality has ruled-out in advance any role for God, then meaning can only be in memory..."<br />I don't see how it is possible to function "spiritually" without God, and I don't know any people I consider spiritual who are doing so. What am I missing?<br />Thank you, sorry if I am being obtuse.pyrrhushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06150605108788285274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-9906409883662489782014-10-18T16:16:26.734+01:002014-10-18T16:16:26.734+01:00@NF - Essential unity is not love - love is betwee...@NF - Essential unity is not love - love is between persons. I agree that essential unity cures suffering - so does death (if death involves obliteration of the self). <br /><br />I also agree that we should strenuously aim to eliminate false selves - but that is not the point at issue. It is the elimination of self as such which I was discussing.<br /><br />As Arkle made clear to me, the elimination of self in a state of impersonal assimilated bliss is very probably allowed by God to those who do not want a personal relationship with Him (in a general sense, all religions get what they want) - but to live with the objective of eliminating suffering/ attachment is anti-life, and only the fear of being mistaken about death being an end of consciousness is a rational deterrent against suicide. <br /><br />The problem with modern spiritual but not religious spirituality is that it is very obviously too weak to make much of a difference to peoples actual lives, behaviour... <br /><br />We have had sixty years of Eastern Religions in the West, with tens of millions of practitioners, and the cultural effect has been negligible - immeasurable. <br /><br />Clearly it will never inspire and en-courage people sufficiently to make unpopular life decisions or oppose prevailing public opinion.Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-21246203275375193592014-10-18T16:16:23.415+01:002014-10-18T16:16:23.415+01:00@NF - Essential unity is not love - love is betwee...@NF - Essential unity is not love - love is between persons. I agree that essential unity cures suffering - so does death (if death involves obliteration of the self). <br /><br />I also agree that we should strenuously aim to eliminate false selves - but that is not the point at issue. It is the elimination of self as such which I was discussing.<br /><br />As Arkle made clear to me, the elimination of self in a state of impersonal assimilated bliss is very probably allowed by God to those who do not want a personal relationship with Him (in a general sense, all religions get what they want) - but to live with the objective of eliminating suffering/ attachment is anti-life, and only the fear of being mistaken about death being an end of consciousness is a rational deterrent against suicide. <br /><br />The problem with modern spiritual but not religious spirituality is that it is very obviously too weak to make much of a difference to peoples actual lives, behaviour... <br /><br />We have had sixty years of Eastern Religions in the West, with tens of millions of practitioners, and the cultural effect has been negligible - immeasurable. <br /><br />Clearly it will never inspire and en-courage people sufficiently to make unpopular life decisions or oppose prevailing public opinion.Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-904598937196721662014-10-18T15:35:52.401+01:002014-10-18T15:35:52.401+01:00The diminishment of "self" through the c...The diminishment of "self" through the cultivation of awareness of separation as an existential delusion has utility in making a person aware of an essential unity. It helps with the problems of alienation, loneliness and despair. <br /><br />This does not imply that the aim is to obliterate memory - it is not. <br /><br /><i>"one feels love, connectedness and compassion for others, for we are all essentially One."<br /><br />This doesn't follow at all - it is a non sequitur, simply saying one thing, then saying another thing. </i><br /><br />This can be rephrased to get around your technical objection. Diminishment of the false self overcomes the sense of alienation and existential despair that is endemic in our age. To use an analogy it is like an ice cube melting in the ocean. Both the cube and the ocean are water, and ego diminishment melts away the egoic artefact of separation. <br /><br />To diminish the selfish orientation of the ego allows a more wholesome experience of life with a greater concern and awareness of the whole tapestry. It allows some loosening of the strings by which the mass media attempts to inculcate via appeal to the ego's fears and hungers. Love is an expression that follows when self orientation yields to whole orientation. <br /><br />The ego - outside of rare and temporary states of euphoric bliss - is always to some extent present and persistent, but the volume of its chatter and influence can be reduced leading to awareness and action based on common-unity.<br /><br />Nicholas Fulfordnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-9237590671483864552014-10-18T13:38:01.645+01:002014-10-18T13:38:01.645+01:00@ld - I know the theory, but what I am suggesting ...@ld - I know the theory, but what I am suggesting is that this is what the theory actually amounts to - at root. There isn't really anywhere else for it to go - a temporary arrangement of the human mind/brain. <br /><br />And transcendence is loss of self. Loss of separation from the universe/ ocean is death of the self - assimilation is death. <br /><br />"one feels love, connectedness and compassion for others, for we are all essentially One."<br /><br />This doesn't follow at all - it is a non sequitur, simply saying one thing, then saying another thing. <br /><br />Although lots of people espouse it, ethical Zen is illogical nonsense. There can be no 'ought' with the metaphysics of Zen - there isn't even any reason why it is 'better' to transcend the self rather than not transcend the self. <br /><br />That it supposedly reduces suffering is not a reason, because there is nothing in the metaphysics to say that suffering is a bad thing - bad for whom? From what perspective? And why should anyone care?Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-53190496559590805382014-10-18T11:30:44.225+01:002014-10-18T11:30:44.225+01:00to me, spirituality without religion means recogni...to me, spirituality without religion means recognizing, observing, living the cosmic divinity of the universe as it plays out without the frame of religion. <br /><br />one does not need to 'collect' memories of spiritual experiences/epiphanies, one is constantly living a life imbued with spirituality, just as a fish does not need to 'remember' water, but simply observe and live 'in water'<br /><br />the true meaning of the 'second path' you refer to is about the transcendence rather than 'obliteration' of the self. the 'false self' refers to the illusion of separation, alienation and isolation one feels with respect to the universe, the Ego (thus leading to self-ish, self-centered, me-against-the-universe behaviors)<br /><br />to transcend the false self simply means to recognize the illusion for what it is, and to see that 'I' am not separate, but a part of the universe, just like a fish is not separate/distinct from the ocean but a part of the ocean. then, one feels love, connectedness and compassion for others, for we are all essentially One.<br /><br />***<br /><br />the pseudo-spiritual new-age phenomenon you have described surely does exist, but they no more represent true spirituality than the pseudo-christians (you so often describe) represent true christianity.Junnieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15134144992967332895noreply@blogger.com