tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post4672655255667724816..comments2024-03-29T12:03:37.344+00:00Comments on Bruce Charlton's Notions: What's so good about Shakespeare?Bruce Charltonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-70228751485845272332012-08-04T04:36:51.592+01:002012-08-04T04:36:51.592+01:00The high place of Byron and Scott is mere fashion ...<i>The high place of Byron and Scott is mere fashion and 19th century fashion at that. </i><br /><br />Yet, they are still with us . . .Darayvushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17973750966981889517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-28214039375173897022012-08-02T22:34:28.036+01:002012-08-02T22:34:28.036+01:00In response to Dr. Charlton's response to FHL....In response to Dr. Charlton's response to FHL.<br /><br />1.It's regrettable when young people are taught Beckett and Pinter, especially as two among relatively few authors. I don't suppose that the students are also reading, e.g. Sir Walter Scott. <br /><br />2.Iago treated sympathetically? Given the travestying being done to other noted classic works, one is not much surprised.<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swan_Lake_%28Bourne%29<br /><br />http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/10/arts/definitely-not-your-mother-s-mozart-opera.html<br /><br />3.Yes -- C. S. Lewis too deplored Restoration comedy.<br /><br />4.I think the best cure for the view of Shakespeare as dark and pagan is to revisit the plays while looking concurrently into the writings of Christian commentators such as Samuel Johnson and S. L. Bethell. Peter Leithart might be a good antidote to the fashionable Left nihilism of our day.<br /><br />http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1885767234/leithartcom-20<br /><br />I see that the conservative Roman Catholic publisher Ignatius Press has a whole series of guides.<br /><br />http://www.amazon.com/Hamlet-Ignatius-Critical-William-Shakespeare/dp/1586172611/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1343943084&sr=1-1&keywords=esolen+shakespeare<br /><br />Such books are being used by homeschoolers in the United States. I think these young people have a chance of getting something much better than modern obsessions about sex and meaninglessness from their reading of Shakespeare!Wurmbrandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17345523517796356674noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-64448041317476772332012-08-02T21:11:59.197+01:002012-08-02T21:11:59.197+01:00@FHL - I am very sympathetic with what you say, an...@FHL - I am very sympathetic with what you say, and I certainly believe art can do real harm - perhaps the greater the art the more harm it can do. Being great art does not make something good. <br /><br />I would go further - I think many young people (especially, because of their rawness and sensitivity) may be harmed, some permanently, by horrible, depressing, nihilistic art which is forced upon them in the course of their education, under the conviction that it can only do good, that teachers have - indeed - a duty to expose students to this, and that the students have a duty to engage with it. <br /><br />Prime examples of this would include the plays of Samuel Beckett or Harold Pinter which are - if effective - horribly demotivating and despair inducing, and seem to have been designed precisely to accomplish this. <br /><br />There are, however, varying levels of sensitivity in people. I am very prone to being harmed and distressed by nihilistic and pessimistic art - for example, I absolutely loathed Shakespeare's Titus Andronicus, and found the blinding scene in Lear almost unbearable, and the sympathetic treatment of Iago very hard to stomach. I walked out of one Royal Shakespeare Company production of a play by Webster (at the interval) because it was so horribly depressing. <br /><br />I disliked even more the Jacobean Tragedies which followed Shakespeare. <br /><br />But for some reason Hamlet does not strike me in this way - indeed there seems to be a strangely hopeful quality about the play just before the tragic end. <br /><br />This is one of the reasons why I like excerpts from Shakespeare. In context, the seven ages of man speech from As You Like It comes across as affected and and the aggressive act of a nasty man - but presented alone it has such beautiful language and imagery that it simply comes across as a perspective or mood about life which needs to be accommodated.<br /><br />But it is not just tragedies. The Restoration Comedies by people like Congreve and Farquhar are vile, to my mind (as is Dangerous Liasons). And of course this applies to most modern comedy - especially farce. Comedy must have heart or else the laughs are merely painful.Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-46503626935115336532012-08-02T20:40:43.855+01:002012-08-02T20:40:43.855+01:00I recently read a cheesy pulp fiction,a "horr...I recently read a cheesy pulp fiction,a "horror/thriller," called The Ruins by an author named Scott Smith. <br /><br />(SPOILER AHEAD) <br /><br />It ends with last surviving character "realizing" God doesn't exist, losing hope, and then slitting her wrists. That's it. I regret reading it. It was terrible, and I don't mean terrible in form or style or plot, but spiritually terrible. Who would write such a thing and for what purpose? <br /><br />I realize this author is not a Christian, and I realize I didn't have to read the book (I knew it was a horror before I read it, so count me guilty), and I also know this Mr. Smith is nowhere near Shakespeare, but I'm starting to think that some fiction is just evil irregardless of the merits of "artistic value." The despair at the end is the same. Recently, I have been tempted to agree with Saint Augustine- there is something wrong with these tragedies. Something morally and spiritually off-kilter. I'm not sure what I fully think of this, haven't really thought it fully through yet, but do you have any thoughts on this? Do tragedies have a role in Christian life? Should we read and "enjoy" tragedies?FHLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-43167005403223007402012-08-02T20:40:18.011+01:002012-08-02T20:40:18.011+01:00Dr. Charlton, I have a question. Perhaps this is a...Dr. Charlton, I have a question. Perhaps this is a slight change of topic, forgive me if it is. <br /><br />(I had to split this into two messages, I was over the character limit)<br /><br />I love Shakespeare, but his tragedies have always disturbed me slightly. I know that is the goal of a tragedy, but I am also disturbed by the fact that someone wants to disturb me. Of Shakespeare, you mention that "his philosophy of life, in so far as one can be discerned from his high points of poetry and rhetoric, is so bleak and pagan as to be hardly bearable except in brief-ish chunks." His bleak worldview certainly stands out but I had never thought of him as pagan until I read this post. But now that I think about it, I realize you are correct. For example, his most famous play, Romeo and Juliet, concerns "star-crossed lovers." It's like a world where the gods rule from on high- untouchable and unapproachable, their fury and benevolence chaotic and meaningless and dependent on their whims, which are like the changing of the wind. Human beings are just tossed around in their game. <br /><br />I never thought of Shakespeare as a Christian writer (although I do not know what his personal views were), but I know that he inhabited a Christian world. Was Shakespeare popular in his day (I really don't know)? Because if he was, I'm not sure how Christians reconciled his plays with their views, which were not merely views back on those days, but their entire lives. Do you think that his plays were good or bad, in the moral and spiritual sense? Did anyone back then oppose his plays?<br /><br />I took a class on the Philosophy of Tragedy a year ago, the central question being "Does tragedy as an art form have a role in Christianity?" Some people said no, that tragedy goes against the hope and joy presented by Christ, others, such as myself, said yes- tragedy reveals the reason why we need Jesus Christ. <br /><br />But I am starting to reconsider. <br /><br />When I compare Shakespeare and other classical tragedies (such as the Greek tragedies) with distinctly Christian work, I find a severe gap between the two in tone. The Lord of the Rings has many tragedies within its epic tale, but there is a hope that runs through it like a current. Perhaps it is not obvious, but it's there, woven into the fictional world. Even J.K. Rowling, with all her modern influences, wrote a deep, painful, yet hopeful tale. Can you imagine how the tone and meaning would have been different had Harry Potter simply been killed at the end? Or if Gollum had just murdered Frodo and Sauron was victorious? And even in C.S. Lewis's "darkest" story, Till We Have Faces, there is a hope presented at the end. The story shows that we are evil, and our world is cruel, sure, but it always shows that God is merciful and loving and can make everything new again. <br /><br />I do not see the slightest hint of that in Shakespeare's tragedies. They remind me of a "new and improved" version of the pagan Greek tragedies.FHLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-35081158231240084522012-08-02T14:25:28.552+01:002012-08-02T14:25:28.552+01:00@Wm Jas - that is very neat, since Tennyson comes ...@Wm Jas - that is very neat, since Tennyson comes close to Shakespeare in sheer sensuous beauty of language; while Pope comes close to Shakespeare but in terms of general applicability to life.Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-38851464571412420652012-08-02T08:25:59.411+01:002012-08-02T08:25:59.411+01:00If quotability is the standard, the Oxford Diction...If quotability is the standard, the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations has more quotations from Shakespeare than anyone else (of course), with Tennyson in second place and Pope in third.Wm Jashttp://wmjas.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-85774107375161691242012-08-02T03:32:46.278+01:002012-08-02T03:32:46.278+01:00fascinating comments here, it is nice to read the ...fascinating comments here, it is nice to read the observations of people who respect the poets who really cared about this world we have been given. Personally, I believe Shakespeare would have preferred to be the author of Genesis, Psalms, Song of Songs, 1-2 Samuel, Proverbs and even Job than the author of the 35 plays that are not Hamlet or Lear, even though I think he knew as well as we do how good those other plays were ... and I think (just to mention Europeans) he would have been amused by Milton, flabbergasted by Dickens, enthused by Scott (regardless of literati's opinions), humbled in a way by Keats and Tolkien (for example, in describing what God's nightingales mean by their song and what a living forest would actually be like)... and we know he produced beautiful variations on Chaucer, Spenser and several continental writers (Montaigne, Cervantes, Petrarch)stephen cnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-32955527245009378052012-08-01T22:14:15.961+01:002012-08-01T22:14:15.961+01:00@Dale - Henry Higgins in Shaw's Pygmalion give...@Dale - Henry Higgins in Shaw's Pygmalion gives this following triadic canon:<br /><br />"A woman who utters such disgusting and depressing noise has no right to be anywhere, no right to live. Remember that you are a human being with a soul and the divine gift of articulate speech, that your native language is the language of Shakespeare and Milton and The Bible. Don't sit there crooning like a bilious pigeon."Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-90462175513844120432012-08-01T22:13:44.058+01:002012-08-01T22:13:44.058+01:00@Dale - this is a quote from Harold Bloom's Th...@Dale - this is a quote from Harold Bloom's The Western Canon:<br /><br />"Dr. Johnson and Hazlitt, contributed to the canonization; but Milton, like Chaucer, Spenser, and Shakespeare before him, and like Wordsworth after him, simply overwhelmed the tradition and subsumed it. "<br /><br />This suggests that these particular five were defined by Milton and supplemented by Worsdworth.Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-19435509655337016992012-08-01T20:53:50.961+01:002012-08-01T20:53:50.961+01:00And remember, Bruce, the chaps who made an England...And remember, Bruce, the chaps who made an England that was unitary and non-fleeting, were the Norm.......deariemenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-44450369821449780912012-08-01T20:34:53.442+01:002012-08-01T20:34:53.442+01:00Thursday confirmed:
(Chaucer, Spenser, Shakespear...Thursday confirmed:<br /><br />(Chaucer, Spenser, Shakespeare, and Milton, and perhaps Wordsworth as a fifth)<br /><br />Yeah, this is the general consensus.<br /><br />1 August 2012 20:13<br /><br />Can anyone cite an authority to which I could point if one of my students asked me where this consensus is expressed?Wurmbrandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17345523517796356674noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-66431810553607655342012-08-01T20:32:57.791+01:002012-08-01T20:32:57.791+01:00The following was the quote which made me think to...The following was the quote which made me think to write this post - it was on a statue in the garden of Ann Hathaway's cottage, and reading evoked both welling eyes and lump in throat:<br /><br />This royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle,<br />This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,<br />This other Eden, demi-paradise,<br />This fortress built by Nature for herself<br />Against infection and the hand of war,<br />This happy breed of men, this little world,<br />This precious stone set in the silver sea,<br />Which serves it in the office of a wall<br />Or as a moat defensive to a house,<br />Against the envy of less happier lands,—<br />This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-75842675949228272682012-08-01T20:19:56.594+01:002012-08-01T20:19:56.594+01:00@drizzz - yes, good examples. But Shakespeare is q...@drizzz - yes, good examples. But Shakespeare is quotable and *beautiful*. <br /><br />The only other book/s with a comparable beauty and quotability to Shakespeare are the 16th and 17th century Book of Common Prayer (Thos Cranmer compilation and composition), Psalms by Coverdale and the authors of the 'King James'/ Authorized version of the Bible.Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-89215845975223279442012-08-01T19:27:28.340+01:002012-08-01T19:27:28.340+01:00Can't argue about Shakespeare being quotable, ...Can't argue about Shakespeare being quotable, part of the secret is the wide range of situations and emotions they apply to. Emerson and Chesterton (to name two) are also incredibly quotable whether you agree with them or not. To me, they both write in a style that oftens seems like nothing more than an endless string of quotable sentences that could perfectly stand by themselves.drizzzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03032435453362480868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-81705055971382675152012-08-01T19:13:04.326+01:002012-08-01T19:13:04.326+01:00Chaucer, Spenser, Shakespeare, and Milton, and per...<i>Chaucer, Spenser, Shakespeare, and Milton, and perhaps Wordsworth as a fifth</i><br /><br />Yeah, this is the general consensus.Thursdayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13002311410445623799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-31039361705374231992012-08-01T19:10:12.258+01:002012-08-01T19:10:12.258+01:00It is not true that Shakespeare's reputation h...It is not true that Shakespeare's reputation had to wait for the Germans. It would seem to have started with the high praises of Jonson and Milton. Then there is Dryden's Of Dramatic Poesy: "[H]e was the man who of all Modern, and perhaps Ancient Poets, had the largest and most comprehensive soul." Then there were the editions by Pope and Johnson, the lavish attention of which other poets were not given. Shakespeare had reached his full reputation in Britain before Goethe, Schiller and the Schlegels.Thursdayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13002311410445623799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-52318970102566246172012-08-01T19:01:12.526+01:002012-08-01T19:01:12.526+01:00Jonson's estimate of Shakespeare seems to have...Jonson's estimate of Shakespeare seems to have gone up radically in the elegy compared to his early remarks in conversation. In fact, he revises his opinion that Shakespeare wants art and ranks him above all other English authors and notes how the ancients no longer please when compared with his contemporary.<br />http://www.luminarium.org/sevenlit/jonson/benshake.htmThursdayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13002311410445623799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-9736675261779608712012-08-01T18:55:47.273+01:002012-08-01T18:55:47.273+01:00The high place of Byron and Scott is mere fashion ...The high place of Byron and Scott is mere fashion and 19th century fashion at that. Byron was an early version of the poet as rock star and Scott was the the 19th century equivalent of George Lucas, a mediocre stylist who had a knack for stirring adventure tales in exotic places. Deserving of his popularity, but far from the first rank. Milton, Chaucer and Dickens would be the authors nearest to Shakespeare in eminence.Thursdayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13002311410445623799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-69296933774836764622012-08-01T18:48:06.886+01:002012-08-01T18:48:06.886+01:00I forgot Chaucer, probably because I regard Middle...I forgot Chaucer, probably because I regard Middle English as a different language - but if it is included then Chaucer is indeed second to the Bard. <br /><br />@Dale - yes, I agree about your list - at least that was what was on offer at good English universities for about the first three generations of the 20th century. <br /><br />@Pentheus - some excellent perspectives. If you widen the argument, or take personal preference as the test, then there is no single figure.Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-48899259300409931352012-08-01T18:21:17.165+01:002012-08-01T18:21:17.165+01:00Thanks for introducing a literary topic for discus...Thanks for introducing a literary topic for discussion. Hope you will welcome some contrary views in furtherance of this comment thread:<br /><br />Whatever are Shakespeare’s considerable merits, Bardolatry has been a pernicious detriment to the health of literary knowledge and awareness, in schools and in the public discourse generally. I don’t have to denigrate him at all to say nonetheless that I regard Shakespeare as being highly overrated today, if for no other reason than that people, having no idea of any other poet anymore, and hearing about Shakespeare all the time, necessarily overrate that one of whom they have heard so frequently.<br /><br />The most quotable and quoted author, I would wager, in having generated into our language the most commonly-used phrases, is probably Alexander Pope. Such is his greatness in this that people quote him all the time without knowing it. “To err is human; to forgive, divine;” “break a butterfly upon a wheel” and many more. When someone quotes Shakespeare it is obviously a quotation of flowery poetry.<br /><br />(Tom Wolfe, also, has generated a staggering number of phrases which have gained common currency, like those of Pope. “The right stuff,” “radical chic,” “the Me generation” to name just a few.)<br /><br />Probably the greatest genius in creating archetypal plots which in turn generated thousands of literary and film productions, is H.G. Wells. He is truly something like our time’s Homer in this. Shakespeare, by contrast, did not create any plots himself; and those he used were not really influential except for Romeo and Juliet (chick flick with action), and Macbeth (the original gangsta!)<br /><br />The poet who most continues to touch men’s hearts is John Keats in his odes and sonnets. <br /><br />The most truly original poet was Walt Whitman. William Blake, also; however he labored ever in obscurity and did not have wider influence until much later in history. Whitman is the father of modern poetry, all by himself, and from Hicktown America, no less. He had the happiest life story of any literary avant-garde-ist. And Whitman, like Keats, is still a poetic spring from which many can continue to draw true refreshment to their souls.<br /><br />The greatest all-around literary genius – of any country at any time -- and most important person in his lifetime was, easily, John Milton. Milton’s life and work also has the most usefulness for us today in our political and cultural situation. Yet I get only blank looks whenever I mention him, including the so-called educated people.<br /><br />One of my problems with Bardolatry is that we know almost nothing about Shakespeare, and what we know is not important or interesting except that it is about Shakespeare. He was not an important person in his lifetime, did not participate in any great actions. There is nothing in the life to inform or inspire us. <br /><br />Milton was objectively a greater individual and as important in politics as in literature. He was a Puritan revolutionary who barely evaded execution upon the Restoration. <br /><br />And for anyone in the “man-o-sphere,” Paradise Lost, and his prose work The Doctrine and Discipline of Divorce, should be central texts for your understanding of the Battle of the Sexes.Pentheusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-68926368335693710072012-08-01T18:10:31.752+01:002012-08-01T18:10:31.752+01:00As for Shakespeare, I recommend S. L. Bethell'...As for Shakespeare, I recommend S. L. Bethell's Shakespeare and the Popular Dramatic Tradition, and essays by E. Stoll (e.g. on Shylock). They help one to avoid misreadings that we are likely to make because we are familiar with conventions of the modern theatre and the novel.<br /><br />Tom Shippey's material in The Road to Middle-earth on "when all our fathers worshiped stocks and stones" (Milton!) helped me to read King Lear profitably -- as a thought experiment, imagining glimpses of holiness in a dark, even heathen era.<br /><br />Tolkien usually is not thought of as appreciating Shakespeare, but he approved the two Shakespearean essays in R. W. Chambers's Man's Unconquerable Mind.Wurmbrandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17345523517796356674noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-47771134683293498042012-08-01T18:04:33.400+01:002012-08-01T18:04:33.400+01:00I had the impression that it was widely thought th...I had the impression that it was widely thought that the greatest English poets were Chaucer, Spenser, Shakespeare, and Milton, and perhaps Wordsworth as a fifth. I wouldn't be able to say where I saw this, but since I generally avoid modern critical-theory writing, my source might have been some older literary history, or even a comment by Owen Barfield. It wouldn't have occurred to me that Byron would be rated among such peers.<br /><br />C. S. Lewis's paper (address) on Scott is a good place to get oriented towards Sir Walter -- and the comments in Lewis's youthful letters. The paper contains his immortal putdown of an unnamed critic who disparaged Jeanie Deans (Heart of Midlothian) as being motivated by envy of her pretty sister -- that the comment sounds like something from a review by a jackal of a book by a lion.<br /><br />A good rule of thumb with Scott's novels is: start at Chapter Two.Wurmbrandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17345523517796356674noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-68846097126310462012-08-01T13:02:13.165+01:002012-08-01T13:02:13.165+01:00P.P.P.S. I suppose Scott's role in the rise of...P.P.P.S. I suppose Scott's role in the rise of the novel means that he is a civilisation-making genius in a way that neither Milton nor Byron are.deariemenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-5522418850858910292012-08-01T12:59:45.397+01:002012-08-01T12:59:45.397+01:00P.P.S. If it dates from Roman times it can be neit...P.P.S. If it dates from Roman times it can be neither English nor Northumbrian.deariemenoreply@blogger.com