tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post4683524613168282389..comments2024-03-28T21:32:26.550+00:00Comments on Bruce Charlton's Notions: Mormon Apostle Dallen Oaks urges the faithful to brace themselves and stand fast under the coming persecutionBruce Charltonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-12039497246652980652013-10-12T05:35:24.749+01:002013-10-12T05:35:24.749+01:00FROM A COMMENT FROM ASDF
asdf has left a new comm...FROM A COMMENT FROM ASDF<br /><br />asdf has left a new comment on your post "Mormon Apostle Dallen Oaks urges the faithful to b...":<br /><br />...Seen this way, [same sex] marriage is just a continuation of the sexual revolution. It's true that overturning laws meant to stifle sexual liberty was part of the movement, but the meat of the movement was changing mainstream moral attitudes about sex. It was about getting social approval ...<br /><br />The laws weren't about legal restrictions so much as a kind of public plebiscite one could point to and say, "see, people approve of my [behaviour]."<br /><br />To understand the ... movement I think you need look no farther then the centerpiece ...[the] pride parade. ... Having seen a number of these when I lived in NYC its clearly about narcissism, voyeurism, moral inversion for the very sake of it, shallowness...<br /><br />The stated goal of pride parades is the sin of pride itself. To declare that you, not God, are the decider of right and wrong. And not just privately, but in a giant public celebration dedicated to the self and its base desires which everyone else should be compelled to approve of... Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-16831057506685393062013-10-11T23:35:31.476+01:002013-10-11T23:35:31.476+01:00First, thank-you to both Bruce and MC for the link...First, thank-you to both Bruce and MC for the links provided. The newspaper articles and the address by Elder Oaks contain much to be reflected upon.<br /><br />In my original post I was speaking from a perspective of a Canadian and with respect to protections and freedoms afforded in both Canada and the United States with respect to religion. (Elder Oaks speech not withstanding, there is a significant freedom of religion in both countries, and yes I see that other freedoms often create friction that has to be settled by the courts and/or through legislation. I am also aware that some human rights tribunals and judgments have swung too far in accommodating minority positions and can be too politically correct by far, and that this does result in some miscarriages of justice from time to time, and at considerable expense.)<br /><br />It does not surprise me that in Africa, the Middle East, and North Korea that Christian persecution exists. In North Korea persecution of anyone for anything that is not enthusiastic support of "Dear Leader" is de rigueur. Also, extremism of the Muslim variety is a common thing in the Middle East, Nigeria, and many North African states. Does this mean that the press should ignore the religious context? No they should not. Persecution is persecution, and without regard to whether it be against a religious, tribal, or secular group, the larger view with proper context needs to be reported. I do think that a significant portion of the press does a disservice by not pointing this out. The events in Egypt and Pakistan from the articles provided do to some extent speak for themselves. Even so, part of good reporting goes beyond a simple relaying of an event to provide useful context.<br /><br />And so, thank-you for your references, which I have read. I obviously have more reading to do to form a more balanced opinion on the international side, and I fully support having religious voices in the public square. <br /><br />Nicholas Fulfordnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-18597916132317608342013-10-11T19:50:20.503+01:002013-10-11T19:50:20.503+01:00Non-Mormons may miss the reference to pioneers and...Non-Mormons may miss the reference to pioneers and handcarts.<br /><br />The handcart pioneers were Mormons who wanted to join the main body of the Saints in Utah but couldn't afford a team and wagon. So they built handcarts which they pulled across the plains. The death toll was high. Much higher in those groups that left late in the season and were caught by the onset of winter, but even among the groups that trekked in pleasant summer, there were significant deaths from privation and exertion.<br /><br />They are a watchword among Mormons for endurance in the face of suffering.<br />***<br /><br />Oaks' was not the only talk that warned of a possible return to the days of persecution.Adam G.http://www.jrganymede.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-42393834673055896272013-10-11T16:40:54.079+01:002013-10-11T16:40:54.079+01:00Nicholas,
Elder Oaks (who is a former law school ...Nicholas,<br /><br />Elder Oaks (who is a former law school dean and state supreme court judge) gave a short summary in 2011 of some real examples of infringement on religious freedom:<br /><br />http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/elder-oaks-religious-freedom-Chapman-University<br /><br />(the summary starts with the paragraph that begins "In New Mexico...")<br /><br />Of course there have been several similar instances since then.MCnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-50887465213197070842013-10-11T15:31:28.261+01:002013-10-11T15:31:28.261+01:00@Nicholas - Perhaps because you are not Christian,...@Nicholas - Perhaps because you are not Christian, and because there has been very little about it in the mass media (or at least the news is *framed* differently) - you may not be aware of the extent to which Christians have been persecuted aggressively in the UK and also USA in the past years.<br /><br />This is not a theoretical matter but includes restrictions on talking about, proselytizing or practising Christianity, aggressive (bankrupting) legal actions from government agencies and pressure-groups, media-fuelled personal hate campaigns with letter campaigns, marches, etc, sacking, fines, and periods behind bars (in the UK at least). <br /><br />On the international stage, it is possible that the *current* numerical level of Christian persecution and for the past decade has been comparable to almost any time in the past 2000 years except for the Soviet Union.<br /><br />The mass media are not interested, don't care or approve what is happening; and the Western gvernments are abbetting (with funds and arms) a large scale purge of Christians from the Middle East.<br /><br />Some hundreds of thousands of Christians seem to have 'disappeared' in Iraq since the war, and there has been ethnic cleansing of Christians from nearly all the "Arab Spring' countries which had, until recently, a Christian presence that had survived since the early years of Christianity.<br /><br />Then there is large scale violence, confiscation and explusions against Christians (for being Christians) in Nigeria, Sudan, Kenya and other places in Africa; Pakinsan and who knows where else.<br /><br />My point is that this has already happened and is still getting worse - the question is how much worse it will become in future (and what should Christians do about it).<br /><br />http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9041841/the-war-on-christians/<br /><br />http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/09/the-silence-of-our-friends-the-extinction-of-christianity-in-the-middle-east/<br /><br />http://barnabasfund.org/UK/News/News-analysis/Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-42384340545170629212013-10-11T15:10:30.693+01:002013-10-11T15:10:30.693+01:00COMMENT FROM NICHOLAS FULFORD
Nicholas Fulford ha...COMMENT FROM NICHOLAS FULFORD<br /><br />Nicholas Fulford has left a new comment on your post "Mormon Apostle Dallen Oaks urges the faithful to b...":<br /> <br />I am wondering what form the persecution will take. The state is loathe to interfere in matters of religion, and marriage as a rite within a church will almost certainly not be challenged by the state. What is happening is that marriage as a legal definition has been extended, to include types of union that are not sanctioned by many churches. This does not change the rights of churches to discriminate in terms of who they will and will not allow to participate within their perishes. <br /><br />This really is a church and state boundary issue, where the state determines what falls within the scope of civil unions from a legal perspective, and churches determine it from a perspective of their teachings and rites. The two do not inherently come into conflict unless either church or state are trying to change the boundaries. (I think that, "Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and unto God that which is God's", is a fine way of delineating the boundaries.)<br /><br />Therefore, I do not think that Mormons or others will be persecuted for their religious values and the boundaries of behaviour that they accept to be a member and to participate in the church. Where it is liable to become an issue is with respect to discrimination outside the church, (i.e. employment law, housing discrimination, etc.)<br /><br />There is of course the so-called Fourth Estate, which includes traditional news sources, bloggers, citizen-journalists, and anyone who has sufficient media savvy to have a significant presence in the public arena. The culture wars tend to become trench warfare, and on the fringes it can become particularly vile, (on both the religious and politically correct sides.) So, in this arena, there is an on-going shift away from traditional values, and an intensification of conflict, but not persecution by the state.Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.com