tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post4705602781977165289..comments2024-03-28T00:17:55.823+00:00Comments on Bruce Charlton's Notions: The "magical system" of Jesus's miraclesBruce Charltonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-6137409946587625562017-12-04T02:58:46.865+00:002017-12-04T02:58:46.865+00:00@CCL - Good comment.
I agree that the point of a...@CCL - Good comment. <br /><br />I agree that the point of a miracle is the effect it has - not the (assumed) method by which it is obtained. Indeed, I also agree with the typically Mormon assumption that there is no division between natural and supernatural - rather, there are many things are (naturally) possible to God that are not possible to Men. <br /><br />The miracles of Christ have different purposes, but seem mostly designed for their effect on the faith of people who were the ebeficaries or witnesses. <br /><br />Consequently, when a faith-enhancing event occurs in our own lives, we should be willing and 'relaxed' about according it miraculous status - but should *refrain* from trying to 'prove' (to ourselves or others) that it could-not-have-been 'coincidence', and that it must-have-been necessarily 'supernatural'. <br /><br />It is possible that the greatest and most significant miracle, the raising of Lazarus, is an exception - because this may have been the 'cosmic Christ' at work - my understanding is that this miracle permanently changed the nature of reality. I infer that this is one reason why the story is given such emphasis by the beloved disciple.<br /><br />(Another reason may be that - as I believe - 'the beloved disciple' who authored the Gospel was not John the son of Zebedee; but instead himself the raised Lazarus.) Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-71343950761215116142017-12-04T00:16:24.566+00:002017-12-04T00:16:24.566+00:00One thing that I contemplated today was the develo...One thing that I contemplated today was the development of our attitude towards the supernatural, and how occult and magical thinking are fundamentally divided from religion.<br /><br />Magic deals with entities which are supernatural but sub-human, it begins as a branch of technology. The magical entities are controllable and predictable by craft without reference to moral purpose in much the same way as chemicals and mechanical interactions in a gun function without regard to where (or at whom) we aim it. This progresses towards occultism, involving dealings with beings that may be of comparable intellect and will to humans, but with divergent abilities and views of the world. As the moral and mental determination of the supernatural grows, the difficulty of forcing or manipulating it into specific courses of action amenable to the human's interests increases. The classic extreme is the Djinn story, in which the human is enormously inferior in power and knowledge to the Djinn, but still attempting (usually unsuccessfully) to trick the Djinn into conceding something of value.<br /><br />Religion is the point at which the <i>moral</i> authority of the supernatural entity is recognized as superior (regardless of whether it is also deemed insuperably in power and knowledge). At which point one forgoes magic entirely, the supernatural event is merely a sign of the moral authority of the being that performs it.<br /><br />Jesus taught this principle immediately after feeding the five thousand with five barley loaves, and two small fishes. "Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world. When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone."<br /><br />And why did Jesus reject their offer of submission? "Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."<br /><br />This conversation continued, the prospective disciples asking one way and another for more bread in exchange for their offered service. Until Jesus finally clarified, "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."<br /><br />The insistence on this esoteric symbolism (though it shouldn't have been strange to the Jews, of all people) rather than continued bread magic dissuaded many from continued discipleship. Because they were ignoring the <i>point</i> of the miracles, which was to teach them to look beyond the bread itself.<br /><br />I think that there is something in the idea that magic typically has the overtly visible/audible impact ending in the result...the supernatural aspect is the means to the natural <i>end</i>. Whereas Christ's miracles present the natural effect and encourage thinking about the supernatural implications. This particular contrast of presentation is not the only way to achieve the desired focus of attention, many miracles (including several of Christ's) involve direct perception of supernatural activity, leading to a lasting impression of the reality of what is usually beyond human perception.<br /><br />But I think that there is something to the idea that a certain profound response is invoked by knowing that wonderful something happened right in front of you without you seeing it. The comparison to a dream may be apt in more than one sense, it presents to the mind the suggestion that the mundane 'reality' of our conscious perception is not above events in dreams.Chiu ChunLinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03519192610708043962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-56682718666835251312017-12-03T04:05:45.326+00:002017-12-03T04:05:45.326+00:00The only miracle I have been close to was the heal...The only miracle I have been close to was the healing of my grandmother. It was extreme and visual and disorienting. It did not feel like magic.Lost Pilgrimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00527327195071733310noreply@blogger.com