tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post4720601215311501379..comments2024-03-28T17:44:11.289+00:00Comments on Bruce Charlton's Notions: Should men OR women dominate the church? (Since neutrality and equality are impossible it must be one or the other)Bruce Charltonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-488053127283335022013-05-26T02:51:39.141+01:002013-05-26T02:51:39.141+01:00'Dominate' seems a curious word to use, in...'Dominate' seems a curious word to use, in reference to something like The Church. <br />But humans are a curious bunch. <br />The Crowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04323413604073160469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-58854335492706963202013-05-24T19:40:37.579+01:002013-05-24T19:40:37.579+01:00@WmJas - these issues cluster, and a specific issu...@WmJas - these issues cluster, and a specific issue (e.g. ordination) has typically being a stalking horse for a much bigger agenda. This we know...<br /><br />"in theory the converse ought to be possible as well: a church with priestesses could still be male-dominated if its female priests complied with principles derived from males."<br /><br />The trouble is that 'in theory' these principles are not reversal, there is not a symmetry here because there is functional difference.<br /><br />However, and to cover your point about Queen Victoria - Elizabeth I would perhaps be a better example, temporary and exceptional exceptions are certainly possible in human systems, and may work well.Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-18276365176118140152013-05-24T18:23:18.289+01:002013-05-24T18:23:18.289+01:00The question your Mormon blogger was addressing wa...The question your Mormon blogger was addressing was whether or not women should be ordained to the priesthood; this is not the same as the question of which sex should dominate the church. You see the Roman Catholic Church as increasingly female-dominated even though it still has an all-male priesthood -- so in theory the converse ought to be possible as well: a church with priestesses could still be male-dominated if its female priests complied with principles derived from males.<br /><br />Is such an arrangement possible in <i>practice</i>? Well, that's an empirical question. Are there any churches which have female priests/ministers but are still male-dominated in spirit? I can't think of any, but parallel cases from the world of politics (i.e. male-dominated polities ruled by females, such as England under Victoria) suggest that it should be possible.Wm Jashttp://wmjas.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-14325424941873671292013-05-24T18:04:42.738+01:002013-05-24T18:04:42.738+01:00The Catholic Church is formally run by celibate me...The Catholic Church is formally run by celibate men but as a practical matter by post-menopausal women. Catholics barely interact with priests so most religious matters are mediated and enforced by older women, often bitter and cruel. The idea of women as moral exemplars is Victorian and not biblical. The NT is pretty clear on men running the church. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-90839288945060209442013-05-24T17:12:48.678+01:002013-05-24T17:12:48.678+01:00In Buddhism women were originally banned from join...In Buddhism women were originally banned from joining the monastic life. After being asked multiple times by one of his closest associates, Gatauma Buddha finally relented and allowed that they may join under very strict rules, including that all women in the order were subordinate to even the most junior monks.<br /><br />So, the issue goes back till before the founding of Christianity. The Great and Powerful Ozhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01379953300283048280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-63846810545242731802013-05-24T16:33:08.844+01:002013-05-24T16:33:08.844+01:00If one broadens the perspective to look outside th...If one broadens the perspective to look outside the UK, where adherents of the Lutheran Confessions are few indeed, one may see that there are millions of Christians who recognize the divine restriction of the pastorate to men, but who are not members of the Orthodox, Roman Catholic, or (in the current sense) Evangelical affiliations. <br /><br />I believe that this would be true of the member churches of the ILC: <br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Lutheran_Council<br /><br />This association doesn't include all Confessional Lutherans, such as the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, etc.<br /><br />These Lutherans enjoy Biblical, credal, orthodox, sacramental Christianity and the ignorance and prejudice of the rest of the world who, having invoked a few cliches about Luther, feel they may write off the Lutherans.<br /><br />Wurmbrandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17345523517796356674noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-12299059105139428112013-05-24T12:40:30.352+01:002013-05-24T12:40:30.352+01:00@JP - Aside from conservative evangelicals, the Co...@JP - Aside from conservative evangelicals, the CoE is en route to collpase and extinction within a generation. The true rate of decline in age-adjusted active membership is now staggering. <br /><br />But for the advocates of liberalism (knowing what they now know this *must be the case) collpase is a feature not a bug; because collapse of any large institution offers great opportunities for asset-strippers - and the Left are nothing if not asset-strippers... <br /><br />But the Anglican communion worldwide contains some extremely impressive bishops in Africa, South America, Asia etc.- so there remains some slender hope of renewal from without.Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-34919572023163462122013-05-24T12:27:37.458+01:002013-05-24T12:27:37.458+01:00Orthodox, that is true writ large -- any instituti...Orthodox, that is true writ large -- <i>any</i> institution that becomes female-dominated becomes low-status, and men leave.<br /><br />A small sign of life in the Catholic Church (when was the last time anyone in the C of E said anything like this?):<br /><br /><i>Women should stay at home and have three or four children to help solve Germany's predicted population crisis, according to a cardinal. <br /><br />Cardinal Joachim Meisner, the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Cologne, has criticised German Chancellor Angela Merkel's policy of trying to attract immigrants to work in the country. <br /><br />He said women should be encouraged to produce more children to increase the German population and said Merkel was using immigration to solve Germany's demographic problems. <br /><br />Cardinal Joachim Meisner said women should have more children to boost Germany's dwindling population and said German Chancellor Angela Merkel is relying on immigration <br /><br />In a wide-ranging attack on Merkel's policies, the cardinal told German newspaper Stuttgarter Zeitung: 'We are a dying people but have a perfect legislation for abortion. Is not that the suicide of society?'</i><br /><br />http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2329471/Cardinal-Joachim-Meisner-says-women-babies-solve-countrys-population-crisis.html<br /><br />JPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-5908498604743433182013-05-24T12:15:56.717+01:002013-05-24T12:15:56.717+01:00@O - Yes, that is what happens. Of course, for som...@O - Yes, that is what happens. Of course, for some people this is a feature not a bug! But as Thomas Sowell says: What Happens Next?<br /><br />So the question is what happens to the denomination/ church *after* the men leave. <br /><br />But I believe that the answer to this is already known from multiple examples: Over the medium (decades) to long term (generations), that church always *collapses*. I don't know of any exceptions.Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-36356634319461761572013-05-24T11:56:45.604+01:002013-05-24T11:56:45.604+01:00Men dominate the church or they leave. Men dominate the church or they leave. Orthodoxnoreply@blogger.com