tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post4916534836614280903..comments2024-03-29T12:03:37.344+00:00Comments on Bruce Charlton's Notions: The need to be twice-born - or, that modern Christian faith must become active and conscious Bruce Charltonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-88280684575321487112018-08-12T06:54:10.649+01:002018-08-12T06:54:10.649+01:00@CCL - Yes, important point.
@CCL - Yes, important point. <br /><br />Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-79975889485661127312018-08-12T04:10:21.006+01:002018-08-12T04:10:21.006+01:00It is of course a necessity to salvation.
The poi...It is of course a necessity to salvation.<br /><br />The point I'm making is that there is no reason to allow people to think that, by choosing <i>not</i> to be free, they can avoid responsibility. One of the great lies of our time is that, because God is merciful to those who <i>couldn't</i> help themselves, such mercy will be extended to those who <i>refused</i> to help themselves.<br /><br />We are not in the position of taking on a responsibility that does not exist till we embrace it. We are only in the position of facing the reality that we <i>are</i> responsible or choosing to be held responsible for trying to evade our responsibility.Chiu ChunLinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03519192610708043962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-39544208693329303992018-08-11T15:53:30.319+01:002018-08-11T15:53:30.319+01:00My point is that, here and now, the conscious, exp...My point is that, here and now, the conscious, explicit, deliberately chosen has become necessary. The fullest agency. Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-90917552288439528202018-08-11T15:25:49.723+01:002018-08-11T15:25:49.723+01:00I think that it is important to distinguish betwee...I think that it is important to distinguish between <i>free</i> agency and agency simple.<br /><br />Free agency requires that we be aware of the truth that we are the major effective cause of our own destiny. We cannot be free agents until we know that we are agents.<br /><br />But simple agency does not require that the agent be free, it can be entirely enslaved but still be the effective cause of its own destiny. The links in a chain are all links in the chain, each one of them exerts the full force of the whole chain, any of them breaking would break the entire chain. It is not just the first link, or the last, but <i>every</i> link that is the effective cause of the chain as a whole exerting force.Chiu ChunLinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03519192610708043962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-89063964151640041892018-08-09T17:48:28.527+01:002018-08-09T17:48:28.527+01:00@CCL - There are long stretches of life when our r...@CCL - There are long stretches of life when our real self is buried beneath superficial, inculcated and false selves; and agency is a potential only. Some people seem unaware of this real self, or just regard it as on a level (or worse than) the other selves. Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-34131074259422352392018-08-09T17:06:58.053+01:002018-08-09T17:06:58.053+01:00It is not that we must become agents. We are alre...It is not that we must become agents. We are <i>already</i> agents, effective causes of our own future. What is necessary is to recognize and accept the profound and disturbing implications of the existing fact of our agency.<br /><br />Christ parsed being 'born again' as a second birth precisely because our first birth into society was insufficient. But I will add nothing more to being born of water and of the Spirit.Chiu ChunLinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03519192610708043962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-2585779270271881112018-08-09T12:32:23.100+01:002018-08-09T12:32:23.100+01:00Just different ways of describing the same thing. ...Just different ways of describing the same thing. I do think though that if the idea is to become like Christ then initial conversion still leaves you on the outside in the great majority of cases. It's the difference between believing in Christ as saviour and Christ actually being born in you and (eventually) literally converting you into a higher type of being. This is conversion as in a kind of metamorphosis. But it's the same idea.William Wildbloodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13231219533755925897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-86362423810216299452018-08-09T12:14:19.827+01:002018-08-09T12:14:19.827+01:00@William - The once twice distinction seemed to wo...@William - The once twice distinction seemed to work for me. Initially I certainly regarded myself as once born, but then went through 'second conversion' - which was actually, properly speaking, the real one. It was also describable - like CS Lewis - as atheism, theism, Christianity - with my first phase of self-identified Christianity being really more like a flavour of theism than genuinely Christian. Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-6563183363542392562018-08-09T11:09:11.486+01:002018-08-09T11:09:11.486+01:00I've not come across this distinction between ...I've not come across this distinction between once-born and twice-born before but it's quite true (though I might prefer to think of it as conceived and then being properly born!). It's the difference between believing something from the outside and making that thing part of yourself, becoming it. This, as you say, was what was supposed to happen with a transitory phase of seeking to know through understanding instead of simple faith. But we have succumbed to various sins which include mental pride and spiritual laziness with a simple lack of imagination being a factor too.William Wildbloodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13231219533755925897noreply@blogger.com