tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post5148770512701465638..comments2024-03-28T21:32:26.550+00:00Comments on Bruce Charlton's Notions: Universalism? (with respect to salvation)Bruce Charltonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-1795514120793747732013-11-08T18:27:52.603+00:002013-11-08T18:27:52.603+00:00@SJ and A - Actually, although I have only a hazy ...@SJ and A - Actually, although I have only a hazy notion of what Heaven may be like - I'm pretty sure it could not be as Arakawa suggests, because that would deny free will - which I regard as a 'given' in human existence - before, during and after mortality. In particular, feeble souls such as myself may be best (from every perspective) in some lowly role for... well if not forever, then for a very long time, and plenty of time to be 'overtaken' by many many others... (and time is, I assume, linear and sequential in Heaven, as on earth).Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-42571012927964362712013-11-08T18:08:56.661+00:002013-11-08T18:08:56.661+00:00At the same time, Heaven consists of a fixed hiera...<i>At the same time, Heaven consists of a fixed hierarchy, because all of the saved are progressing at the same time.</i><br /><br />Well, that sounds alright.Samson J.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-70304083919540955482013-11-08T01:34:27.713+00:002013-11-08T01:34:27.713+00:00@Samson J.
"even as an evangelical I have ne...@Samson J.<br /><br />"even as an evangelical I have never understood why one's "place" in heaven should be "fixed". Once I get there, why can't I work to improve my situation, just like I can in real life - and in fact *better* than I can in real life because there will be fewer hindrances? It doesn't make sense."<br /><br />My understanding is that eternal progression is in fact promised in Heaven. In classical theology (where God is the bottom line irreducible reality, and is infinitely good), one will always be growing in godliness, because it takes an eternity to grow in theosis, i.e. one will always have room for improvement, relative to the infinite goodness of God.<br /><br />(In Mormon theology by contrast, I assume eternal progression is taken as an axiom of reality, valid for any sufficiently Good intelligent being, and God is simply progressing just like everyone else.)<br /><br />At the same time, Heaven consists of a fixed hierarchy, because all of the saved are progressing at the same time. Thus, in an Achilles and the Tortoise kind of scenario, the Saints who are far ahead in theosis will always remain ahead of me. (Time in Heaven is supposedly a matter of convenience.)<br /><br />An imperfect metaphor for this is seen in the growth of families. I may eventually become a father, but I will still be my father's son -- indeed, through me my father will become a grandfather. Likewise, my older brother is eternally my older brother, even though I will eventually become exactly as old (and hopefully just as mature) as he is right now. He will just grow older and more mature in the meantime.Arakawahttp://arakawa.github.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-4622503204429745032013-11-07T21:37:24.920+00:002013-11-07T21:37:24.920+00:00@SJ - I don't think it is to do with amount of...@SJ - I don't think it is to do with amount of happiness - more like the difference between being a child and an adult, single and married, having children - that sort of thing. Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-73196285864356132642013-11-07T20:47:14.611+00:002013-11-07T20:47:14.611+00:00but most mainstream Christians see theosis as some...<i>but most mainstream Christians see theosis as something which is stopped by death or shortly after death</i><br /><br />It's interesting that you point this out, because it's something that has never made very much sense to me. As you know, I am presently no kind of Mormon, but even as an evangelical I have never understood why one's "place" in heaven should be "fixed". Once I get there, why can't I work to improve my situation, just like I can in real life - and in fact *better* than I can in real life because there will be fewer hindrances? It doesn't make sense.<br /><br />But all of this must be coupled with the fact that I have also never understood what it even means to have a "place" in heaven. If I'm already blissfully happy, how can someone else be "more" blissfully happy?Samson J.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-21985209812479516872013-11-07T17:56:37.740+00:002013-11-07T17:56:37.740+00:00@B "According to what has been revealed so fa...@B "According to what has been revealed so far, ONLY that upper tier in the Celestial has 'eternal progression.' The rest do _ not_ have any increase, and remain in their saved state forever. Some Mormons have a private belief that there is progression between kingdoms but that is not supported in scripture, and in the past has been actively spoken against by leadership, notably by Apostle Bruce McConkie."<br /><br />Within Mormonism there are Classical philosophical versions that emphasize structures and categories and absolutes of which Apostle Bruce McConkie seems to have been one of the most forthright; and the pragmatist tradition which emphasizes processes, fluidity and unbounded progress - which I picked up from the likes of Sterling McMurrin, Eugene England and Terryl Givens. <br /><br />To my mind, both sides are right, each side has some truths which the other misses, and both sides collapse into absurdity if pushed too far - but my sympathies are on the pragmatist side.<br /><br />Therefore I interpret the categories and bounds you describe in a fluid kind of way; and certainly I believe that the spirit of Mormonism is strongly against the idea that (with but few exceptions) there are rigid and permanent (eternal) boundaries or limits placed on spiritual progression.Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-60779941816094696792013-11-07T17:02:32.445+00:002013-11-07T17:02:32.445+00:00@Wm Jas, re embracing versus not-rejecting.
Matt...@Wm Jas, re embracing versus not-rejecting.<br /><br />Matthew 7:21, Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.<br /><br />It's easy to give mental assent to Truth. Even Satan and his demons know who the Father and the Son are, and what they have done. Living according to the Truth every day, well, I often find it inconvenient, a lot of work, I mostly fail at it, which is discouraging, and it can be very ego-bruising. Bookslingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15077778974473538408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-36383772781802352152013-11-07T16:26:57.620+00:002013-11-07T16:26:57.620+00:00@BC, your comment of 05:38 might give a false imp...@BC, your comment of 05:38 might give a false impression to those who are not familiar with the LDS concept of theosis/exaltation vis-a-vis salvation. Here's a quick rundown for those who don't already know. <br /><br /> These things are covered in the basic missionary lessons (from the Preach My Gospel manual/book at https://www.lds.org/manual/preach-my-gospel-a-guide-to-missionary-service which can be read online or the download option gives a pdf) and in the 47 chapter Sunday school manual Gospel Principles which is taught to new members ( read online or Download a PDF at http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles )<br /><br />The scriptural basis of exaltation-versus-salvation is found in Doctrine and Covenants sections 76 and 132.<br />http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76<br />http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132<br /><br />In a nutshell (and this is for your audience, since i think you are familiar with this), there are three heavens (kingdoms) to which people are assigned or file off into on the great judgement day at the end of the millennium. The Celestial is the highest, the Terrestrial is the middle, the Telestial is the lowest. The Celestial has 3 degrees or tiers in it. Only the folks in the highest degree/tier of the Celestial eventually go on to exaltation. The folks in the lower two tiers are servants or "ministering angels" to the folks who eventually go on to exaltation. All three tiers within the Celestial kingdom enjoy the presence of the Father.<br /><br />The folks in the Terrestrial kingdom accepted Christ, but were "less than valiant" . They enjoy the presence, or ministration/visitation of Christ, but not of the Father.<br /><br />The folks in the Telestial did not accept Christ, and have to suffer for their sins in hell during the millennium. But at the great judgement day, when "death and hell give up their dead" this is where they go. The Holy Ghost is the member of the Godhead who ministers to or visits this kingdom.<br /><br />These are only summaries of sections 76 and 132, and even those only give vague outlines and generalities. In reality, we don't know how to judge, nor should we, any particular person, as regards to what behaviors/beliefs here on earth lead one to any one of those kingdoms.<br /><br />Various other scriptures give tidbits, about how little children who die are saved in the Celestial Kingdom, and how people who die without any chance whatsoever of accepting Christ "but would have, had they had the opportunity" (not an exact quote) also eventually go on to the Celestial Kingdom. <br /><br />Based on the scriptures we have so far, we believe that much teaching, repenting, suffering/joy, and learning goes on among the spirits of the deceased in between the time they depart this life and the time they are resurrected. <br /><br />The proxy ordinances, such as baptism, that are done in the LDS temples are in the belief/hope that all the spirits of the deceased do get a chance to accept Christ at some point prior to their individual resurrection. <br /><br /> But as to what heaven or kingdom they (or even we ourselves) end up in, whether it is exaltation in the Father's (Celestial) kingdom, "mere" salvation (ie, no exaltation) in the Celestial kingdom, or one of the "lesser" salvations in the Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdom, we just don't know. <br /><br />According to what has been revealed so far, ONLY that upper tier in the Celestial has 'eternal progression.' The rest do _ not_ have any increase, and remain in their saved state forever. Some Mormons have a private belief that there is progression between kingdoms but that is not supported in scripture, and in the past has been actively spoken against by leadership, notably by Apostle Bruce McConkie.<br /><br />Bookslingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15077778974473538408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-24358569895967085792013-11-07T05:38:43.934+00:002013-11-07T05:38:43.934+00:00@WmJas - I would say both would be saved, because ...@WmJas - I would say both would be saved, because both would choose to be saved. <br /><br />The difference is related to the possibility for theosis/ sanctification/ exaltation/ spiritual progress during life. <br /><br />I suppose theosis to be a matter of aiming at a higher place in Heaven, analogous to aiming for a higher rank of job. <br /><br />Mormons see this process as open-ended and quantitative and mostly a matter of how rapidly the stages can be traversed; but most mainstream Christians see theosis as something which is stopped by death or shortly after death (for example, there may be a very rapid and far reaching theosis around the moments of death in the case of martyrdom). <br /><br />This is another of those areas in which Mormonism thwarts expectations; because I think most people would predict that having a near universalist salvation, and theosis as continuing into an 'infinite' future (so that living an active and devout life and enduring persecutions etc 'only' speeds-up the process of exaltation which would/could happen anyway) - would lead to a lax and feeble kind of 'liberal' faith - but in practice it didn't.Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-7923976418304586062013-11-07T05:27:33.482+00:002013-11-07T05:27:33.482+00:00@B - Yes, I've written about it
http://charlt...@B - Yes, I've written about it<br /><br />http://charltonteaching.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/christianity-and-masculinity_12.html<br /><br />http://charltonteaching.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/whats-in-face-christian-leaders-past.html<br /><br />Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-19109822091266703822013-11-07T03:40:42.299+00:002013-11-07T03:40:42.299+00:00@BC, have you, or has anyone else, written anythin...@BC, have you, or has anyone else, written anything about the wimpification of Christianity?<br /><br />Perhaps the seeds were in ancient Catholicism, but as western protestantism adopted socialist ideals, that seemed to accelerate things. <br /><br />Sure, there's always been the fire-and-brimstone hellfire-and-damnation stentorian preachers. But the media like to portray bad clergy as hypocrites and abusers of their power, and good preachers as Harvey Milquetoast.Bookslingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15077778974473538408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-47076819598477462992013-11-07T02:33:30.119+00:002013-11-07T02:33:30.119+00:00Among people who know about Christianity, is there...Among people who know about Christianity, is there any real distinction between embracing it and merely not-rejecting it?Wm Jashttp://wmjas.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-38034912112064847782013-11-06T20:43:36.434+00:002013-11-06T20:43:36.434+00:00You leave the $64,000 question unasked. What is s...You leave the $64,000 question unasked. What is salvation? <br />Elder Oaks gave six definitions:<br />http://indybooks.blogspot.com/2009/11/are-you-saved.html<br />And his original talk is here:<br />http://www.lds.org/ensign/1998/05/have-you-been-saved<br /><br />As I was growing up, my impression of the Christian heaven was that it was insipid and boring, something only namby-pamby Mr. Rogers types would want.Bookslingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15077778974473538408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-17617227078354140912013-11-06T14:38:39.273+00:002013-11-06T14:38:39.273+00:00You saved the gem of the piece for the footnote.You saved the gem of the piece for the footnote.Adam G.http://www.jrganymede.comnoreply@blogger.com