tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post5607333762180848011..comments2024-03-28T21:32:26.550+00:00Comments on Bruce Charlton's Notions: Free will - its centrality to ChristianityBruce Charltonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-18161890424900538652011-09-09T06:41:15.485+01:002011-09-09T06:41:15.485+01:00@WmJas - One answer would be that it is what free ...@WmJas - One answer would be that it is what free will does that is vital - not trying to understand what it is. <br /><br />So, when I read one of the theologians whom I trust, I find places where human free will is the concept used to describe key choices in life.<br /><br />Or in literature: like Bilbo in the tunnel of the lonely mountain (struggling with fear - go-on or go-back) or Gollum in the tunnels of Cirith Ungol (take Frodo to Shelob or repent).<br /><br />Free will is what makes such moments crucial (a cross-roads) - there is a decision which is neither constrained nor random but expressive of individual choice - indeed definitive of individual choice. <br /><br />In reality this is going on all the time, under layers of confusion, distraction and denial. Perhaps this is best shown in Charles Williams novel Descent into Hell - the multiple minute choices which push us one way or the other. Or Lewis's Screwtape letters.<br /><br />Indeed, maybe the difficulty with discussing free will is that it is *for* such choices, free will is *about* the choices between the Good and the other.<br /><br />If we try to discuss free will in a non-transcendental, secular context maybe confusion and error is inevitable? <br /><br />Apparently Aquinas said that free will was given to Man by God; it is not something found in most of the universe but specifically given by God to Man - implicitly in order that Man *may* become the kind of creature God intends.<br /><br />By this account, however free will 'works' it is not going to be the same way that other things work. <br /><br />In such an account free will is non-problematic and essential - but if (as modern man has done) we try to understand free will after subtracting God, creation, transcendental Goods, purposive evil etc - then it is not surprising that free will seems incoherent. <br /><br />Imagine the world of Descent into Hell as being real, then add in that the characters spend their time being skeptical about the reality of the choices they make, trying to understand the causal basis of their choices... Inevitably this would mean that the characters would all be on the hell-ward path, wouldn't it? <br /><br />Thus a society in which we obfuscate the central human activity of choice (moral choice, but also choices wrt truth and beauty) is a society intrinsically damned.Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-20820050821925609882011-09-09T04:53:25.741+01:002011-09-09T04:53:25.741+01:00If "we have free will" were a clear, coh...If "we have free will" were a clear, coherent proposition, and the only question were whether it were true or false, I would have no problem with accepting its truth as an axiom and moving on.<br /><br />But in fact, the very <i>meaning</i> of the proposition is unclear, and no coherent, non-self-contradictory definition seems possible. I can decide to "believe" it, but then what? If the meaning of the proposition is not understood, nothing can follow from it (or, if it's self-contradictory, <i>everything</i> follows from it!), nothing can be judged consistent or inconsistent with it, and it's not at all clear what place it could have in my thinking.<br /><br />Do you think you could elaborate on what exactly free will means to you? I don't mean a formal definition or anything like that; I mean something like, "We have free will. <i>Therefore</i>, it follows that...."Wm Jashttp://wmjas.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-68147037774275077402011-09-08T22:23:12.149+01:002011-09-08T22:23:12.149+01:00I'd be interested in your description of the t...I'd be interested in your description of the trajectory of Calvinism, which is Christianity Without Free Will. Martin Luther was a Calvinist-in-advance, he wrote a book called, "The Bondage of the Will" in which he described man's will as a horse over which saddle God and Satan struggled to mount; man has no will in and of himself.<br /><br />Calvinism in America (originated by the Puritans in Mass. Bay Colony) hasn't gone well.<br /><br />Myself, I believe in a constrained free will. We are heavily influenced by genetics and culture and upbringing and reality so that none of us is altogether free.The Continental Opnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-29436221010109907522011-09-08T21:21:37.721+01:002011-09-08T21:21:37.721+01:00This entry is refreshing to read from the perspect...This entry is refreshing to read from the perspective of where the rubber meets the road.<br /><br />Now if I could only get my sister to understand some of the things expounded here. She has blindsided our traditional Christian family by announcing that she is leaving her husband, by whom she has four children, for another man, stating that what the religion of her childhood has taught her against this behavior were the mere trappings of a controlling cult. Any stated objections by family members with the goal of convincing her not to do this are perceived by her as attempts to force her or manipulations. Apparently she is viewing herself as a slave to her synapses and hormones.hilokeynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-10547078398318926232011-09-08T20:42:51.420+01:002011-09-08T20:42:51.420+01:00As a fan of Derb, it saddens me that he's been...As a fan of Derb, it saddens me that he's been taken in by those fMRI wielding clowns, but he is a pretty convinced materialist so there aren't alot of choices for him. <br /><br />Dr. Charlton, did you read that back and forth on von Balthasar Baduin linked to a few days ago on the Charles Williams post? It took my mind right to where this post went.Gabe Ruthnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-44190928379303325622011-09-08T19:10:10.030+01:002011-09-08T19:10:10.030+01:00@HOJ- science is orthogonal to free will - it has ...@HOJ- science is orthogonal to free will - it has precisely nothing to do with it: no scientific discovery ever has, or ever, could have made any difference to free will. This is just a sub-set of the fact that science has nothing to say about metaphysics.Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-73382905771311181642011-09-08T19:02:04.266+01:002011-09-08T19:02:04.266+01:00Without free will, humans become like termites. Wh...Without free will, humans become like termites. Which is fine, I suppose, if a termite-society is the goal. It seems to be the goal, lately. <br />Great civilizations are not built by termites, although termites can put together some pretty impressive mounds. <br />The thing termites are best known for, is their destructive ability. At this, they excel. <br />Humans, on the other hand, while being plenty good at destruction, are also able to build amazing things from dust and vegetation, above and far beyond mere mounds. <br />Free will is what enables them to do this. <br />It would seem rather important.The Crowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04323413604073160469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-57901745982077892242011-09-08T18:09:45.165+01:002011-09-08T18:09:45.165+01:00I always say I believe in free will. If I am right...I always say I believe in free will. If I am right, fine; if not, I didn't have any choice in the matter anyway.<br /><br />The Derb seems to be of the opinion that recent developments in neuroscience make the idea of free will less and less likely. It seems to me that it depends on how you define "free". The purist wants free will to exist almost apart from the chemistry and electrical potentials building up in the neurons of the brain. I am satisfied to think of it as being a mathematical product of huge numbers of competing memories and motivations operating at a subconscious level until the winner breaks through into the conscious mind as a freely expressed notion.<br /><br />How does your understanding of the workings of the brain agree with your belief that free will is essential to Christianity?HenryOrientJnrnoreply@blogger.com