tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post6519851700509221403..comments2024-03-28T16:05:01.592+00:00Comments on Bruce Charlton's Notions: Reconceptualizing natural selection as primarily concerned with counteracting entropy (e.g. mutation accumulation)Bruce Charltonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-66287239085589527272014-09-11T19:12:30.570+01:002014-09-11T19:12:30.570+01:00@Thomas - That is a valid question (although outwi...@Thomas - That is a valid question (although outwith science) - but perhaps ultra-high child mortality is to be seen in the context of nature as a whole, and its vast wastage and suffering. <br /><br />About half of humans conceived die as zygotes, embryos or fetuses before they are even born (I mean naturally). <br /><br />There is a primary theological sense in which dying is - indeed must be - the most important thing we ever do. My understanding is that - for some reason I cannot fathom - dying is necessary to spiritual progression. As a (theoretical) Mormon I believe our pre-mortal spirits were incarnated and then they die.<br /><br />The problem of suffering is complex - some suffering is necessary some is good for us - but there is a residuum of spiritually-unnecessary and excessive suffering in the world. I believe that God cannot altogether prevent this - partly because of human 'free will' and partly because there are some natural processes (earthquakes, asteroid collisions etc) which 'just happen' - God is in the universe, the universe is not in God. <br /><br />Those sufferings God cannot prevent God does heal. He cannot make them as if they had not happened, but He can - and does - wholly heal their ill effects. Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-20271897463259808592014-09-11T18:14:47.078+01:002014-09-11T18:14:47.078+01:00How do you square this with a loving Father? Why w...How do you square this with a loving Father? Why would he setup humanity to be dependent on high-infant-mortality (which seems terrible and tragic) to thrive?Thomasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-8220263259000245242014-09-11T10:16:06.080+01:002014-09-11T10:16:06.080+01:00@Mangan--Good point, but NS is an absolutely mecha...@Mangan--Good point, but NS is an absolutely mechanical /mathematical system that is inherent in the physical Universe. So Nature has to operate within that entropic background , regardless.pyrrhushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06150605108788285274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-30969726965178970522014-09-11T06:02:44.888+01:002014-09-11T06:02:44.888+01:00Yes! Absolutely perfect! Entropy is diametrically ...Yes! Absolutely perfect! Entropy is diametrically opposed to humanity, which is complexity, differentiation and life. We ARE the anti-entropy.Mark Yurayhttp://aramaxima.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-53089397415635187852014-09-11T05:54:45.606+01:002014-09-11T05:54:45.606+01:00@satndingagainst... In volume 2 of The Narrow Road...@satndingagainst... In volume 2 of The Narrow Roads of Gene Land, WD Hamilton actually tackles the full implications of the rather vague general idea of correcting mutations using some kind of technology. It is in the first place much more difficult (and a much more remote possibility) than is usually recognized. Secondly, because of the scale of the problem, its consequences are far less acceptable than many would accept. For example, the human genome becomes, in effect, the property of the state - and in practice would be frozen at one particular variant so people would become clones - all new mutations would need to be eliminated because they *might* be deleterious in some unknown way. <br /><br />@Mangan - That has a quantitative effect on reducing entropy/ culling some mutations, which is presumably why such mechanisms evolved. But none are 100 percent effective, plus of course the repair mechanisms are themselves subject to entropy - so you would need a repair mechanism for the repair mechanism (and so on...)Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-15589399565851545062014-09-11T05:16:02.926+01:002014-09-11T05:16:02.926+01:00Have you come up with a mathematical way to expres...Have you come up with a mathematical way to express this insight? There should be a way of formalizing it.Adam G.http://www.jrganymede.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-73662423245470419092014-09-11T04:44:23.989+01:002014-09-11T04:44:23.989+01:00Have you considered a simulation that might flesh ...Have you considered a simulation that might flesh out this idea? One might be able to construct a model to illustrate the concept.Benjamin I. Espenhttp://www.benespen.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-27552645033133902732014-09-11T03:26:06.788+01:002014-09-11T03:26:06.788+01:00It seems like it is essential for people in advanc...It seems like it is essential for people in advanced societies to employ advanced medical technologies like genetic engineering to slough off deleterious mutations every few generations as well as correct current deleterious mutations that cause disease.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-63122268265672322232014-09-10T23:23:14.573+01:002014-09-10T23:23:14.573+01:00Why wouldn't a better DNA repair mechanism, fo...Why wouldn't a better DNA repair mechanism, for example, be a more thrifty way of ensuring against entropy? The culling of masses of offspring when a few extra DNA repair systems (enzymes) would do the job seems far more wasteful, and DNA repair more fitness producing. Organisms already have these mechanisms, so doubling up on them wouldn't be difficult.<br />(This is all assuming that I've understood your argument correctly.)Dennis Manganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16934802482968611507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-58764669864700990382014-09-10T22:50:58.286+01:002014-09-10T22:50:58.286+01:00And the extension of your thesis is that inhibitin...And the extension of your thesis is that inhibiting Natural Selection through enabling naturally non-viable offspring to live long enough to reproduce accumulates mutations that should have been culled leading to greater entropy and less fitness further down the road.<br /><br />Add to this the fact that the naturally fit - those who would not have been culled by Natural Selection - are overwhelmed by the reproduction of the less fit, and a recipe exists for a "hard correction" at some point down the line.<br /><br />Reproduction by the less fit also leads to a resource drain as more effort is spent to allow the less fit to live and live longer, and breed, et cetera.<br />Add to this the tendency of many who are fit to put off or not reproduce, and the species becomes even less fit - though sustained by artificial means.<br /><br />I sense a positive feedback loop here, and not a nice one.Nicholas Fulfordnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-17929167985320541112014-09-10T21:56:24.314+01:002014-09-10T21:56:24.314+01:00@BB - Yes, and I was banging on about it on that b...@BB - Yes, and I was banging on about it on that blog in June 2013!<br /><br />http://westhunt.wordpress.com/2013/06/07/the-breeders-equation/Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-2019867983509509542014-09-10T21:11:16.033+01:002014-09-10T21:11:16.033+01:00Here’s the Cochran line (characteristically memora...Here’s the Cochran line (characteristically memorable):<br /><br />“This notion that ongoing natural selection is not the default – that it only happens on national holidays or whatever – is fairly common among biologists. Obviously untrue, because you can’t even have things stay the same without ongoing selection – otherwise mutations and drift would gradually ruin everything. Only selection lets horseshoe crabs outlast mountain ranges”<br />Bruce B.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-42395005800187531762014-09-10T20:23:20.031+01:002014-09-10T20:23:20.031+01:00
Greg Cochran mentioned something about this in a ...<br />Greg Cochran mentioned something about this in a comment on his blog recently. He mentioned it like is it was obvious, not some new discovery.Bruce B.noreply@blogger.com