tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post7942990248638970513..comments2024-03-18T20:18:04.114+00:00Comments on Bruce Charlton's Notions: Problems with the explanation of Original SinBruce Charltonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-24461002280975169572021-11-27T11:16:54.483+00:002021-11-27T11:16:54.483+00:00Interesting, thank you!Interesting, thank you!David Earlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06090067437261800696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-83521198412858104892021-11-26T23:50:26.891+00:002021-11-26T23:50:26.891+00:00@Islanti - I do not regard the virgin birth as cor...@Islanti - I do not regard the virgin birth as core or primary - since it is not mentioned in the fourth gospel, does not serve an essential theological function by my understanding. I suppose one theological reason for the doctrine may not relate to virginity but to providing a 'mechanism' by which Jesus was divine - i.e. to show how God (not Joseph) was Jesus's literal father. Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-6522857053731871102021-11-26T22:28:11.154+00:002021-11-26T22:28:11.154+00:00Apolgizes for replying to an old post, but do you ...Apolgizes for replying to an old post, but do you see any significance of the Virgin Birth besides prophesy fulfillment? I thought this reinforced the idea of OS, because Jesus being born of a virgin meant he was the only human ever born without OS?David Earlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06090067437261800696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-35981357192274922572014-02-24T16:29:42.489+00:002014-02-24T16:29:42.489+00:00The act of purgation, from within the Catholic chu...The act of purgation, from within the Catholic church, could be a catalyst for heroic overcoming of sin. To accept OS and realize one has natural inclinations towards sin like sloth, jealously, promiscuity (etc., depending on the individual nature) but then *recognizing* through OS that these things are not really part of one's true higher self, as re-born in Christ. This mental separation could be key to overcoming instead of falling into the delusion that these sinful tendencies are an integral part of oneself (i.e. modern celebration of "individual" that really means "give into your urges as we manipulate them with the following paid advertisement...")<br /><br />The flip side of separation from one's lower or sinful tendencies is to recognize that those good and beautiful tendencies are connected to the divine! Thus theosis...?Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-72114483077878209242014-02-24T13:47:39.422+00:002014-02-24T13:47:39.422+00:00@Adam - Just to clarify - my quibble was purely em...@Adam - Just to clarify - my quibble was purely empirical - in the sense that I am not sure whether trying and failing to live a virtuous life really does typically/ always have the psychological effect of seeing the need for a saviour. <br /><br />I agree that it probably ought-to - but I think it perhaps often doesn't (for various reasons, often bad, including the things about progressivism offering excuses). <br /><br />BTW - "We are in a state where its considered more important that a violent lunatic got that way because of environmental influences rather than the glaring fact that a violent lunatic is a violent lunatic" is what I would regard as an excellent example of what I was meaning in today's post about the species of delusional thinking which insists on focusing on secondary issues while refusing to talk about the primary issue. <br />Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-29968330601215377012014-02-24T13:38:12.899+00:002014-02-24T13:38:12.899+00:00*Perhaps because there are so many things that can...*Perhaps because there are so many things that can be blamed for our failures, without needing a saviour. *<br /><br />I disagree, for two reasons.<br /><br />First, blaming your failure on outside forces usually means thinking to little of yourself. Someone truly in the image of God and living life in the heroic mode would not live a sinful, inadequate life because *my wife isn't supportive enough* *my parents didn't raise me well* *I have allergies* *things are tough at work.* Excuses are a product of thinking too little of oneself.<br /><br />Second, it implicitly buys into a Christian moral framework. But if you're rejecting the need for a Savior, you ought to reject the Christian moral framework along with it, because the framework only makes sense in his presence. The Christian moral framework says that it doesn't matter where you are at in life, it only matters if you are to blame, because if you aren't to blame, Christ will make up the difference. Without Christ making up the difference, it matters very much if you are miserable or inadequate or unvirtuous and it doesn't matter much why. That's why I think that trying to live a moral, godly life is the best inculcator of the need for a savior. Because once you set your sights on an actual end state instead of on just 'not being to blame,' you quickly come to realize that you aren't reaching that state and you need considerable help to get there.<br /><br />By the by, focusing on blameableness and culpability instead of one's actual condition is one of progressivism's most dangerous sub-Christian malformations. We are in a state where its considered more important that a violent lunatic got that way because of environmental influences rather than the glaring fact that a violent lunatic is a violent lunatic. If that's all you're saying, that progressivism distorts the quest to live a godly life even among people who have rejected progressivism enough to try to live a godly life, then I agree with you. Adam G.http://www.jrganymede.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-20017274785207243642014-02-24T06:37:00.496+00:002014-02-24T06:37:00.496+00:00@Adam "It is not doctrine that demonstrates y...@Adam "It is not doctrine that demonstrates your need for a savior. It is trying to live a godly life."<br /><br />I see what you mean - but I don't think that is quite right. Perhaps because there are so many things that can be blamed for our failures, without needing a saviour. <br /><br />Also, there is a further paradox that Mormons expect to make moral progress (by their own efforts assisted by the Holy Ghost) - and get annoyed/ irritated if this does not happen, or when they lapse; whereas many mainstream Christians (perhaps especially Catholics) expect that their efforts at moral improvement will fail utterly. <br /><br />This might suggest that Mormons would be expected to feel less need of a Saviour, since they expected to be able to improve their lives significantly and move towards perfection - yet in practice this has not happened.Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-19398311968229056782014-02-24T02:41:19.163+00:002014-02-24T02:41:19.163+00:00It is not doctrine that demonstrates your need for...It is not doctrine that demonstrates your need for a savior. It is trying to live a godly life.<br /><br />So the real danger to avoid is not that of not teaching a strict enough doctrine of original sin. The real danger is downplaying morality and the virtues.<br /><br />Excellent post.Adam G.http://www.jrganymede.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-18838715210347962232014-02-23T21:00:19.395+00:002014-02-23T21:00:19.395+00:00@Th - I don't think OS could be described as a...@Th - I don't think OS could be described as a 'stumbling block' when I regard it as unnecessary (although, as I said, not fatal)!Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-26377020725840539262014-02-23T19:36:35.541+00:002014-02-23T19:36:35.541+00:00I've found a Reformed pastor from California, ...I've found a Reformed pastor from California, Derek Rishmawy, helpful on <a href="http://derekzrishmawy.com/2013/07/11/that-time-c-s-lewis-got-total-depravity-wrong-like-everybody-else" rel="nofollow">these issues.</a><br /><br />He's also good on <a href="http://mereorthodoxy.com/beauty-impassible-god-god-emotional-teenager" rel="nofollow">divine impassibility,</a> which also seems to be a stumbling block for you.<br />Thursdayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13002311410445623799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-43259769595018264442014-02-23T16:35:49.125+00:002014-02-23T16:35:49.125+00:00It's a really interesting question. Monks seem...It's a really interesting question. Monks seem to ride that fine line between viewing the world and human nature as bad, viewing themselves as bad and feeling completely unworthy, but not giving into despair - still hoping, loving, and embracing a life of pursuing God.Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-51309409194269586372014-02-23T14:54:04.054+00:002014-02-23T14:54:04.054+00:00@Jables - did you notice the first word of the pos...@Jables - did you notice the first word of the post?Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-42487924656799923932014-02-23T13:20:39.195+00:002014-02-23T13:20:39.195+00:00I don't know what theology you're criticiz...I don't know what theology you're criticizing here. I'm no expert but I've never known Catholic theology to say that OS means men are rotten to the core, nor to say that salvation is ENTIRELY Christ's responsibility with no contribution from our own will. You could quibble about the latter, I suppose, based on the idea of prevenient grace.<br /><br />It sounds like you are criticizing the doctrine of total depravity, which so far as I know has never been the doctrine of the Catholic or Eastern Church. Maybe some of the Reformed denominations. J. B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05285490297087135611noreply@blogger.com