tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post8151786017966403498..comments2024-03-28T00:17:55.823+00:00Comments on Bruce Charlton's Notions: Extraordinary claims, extraordinary evidence, psychic dreamsBruce Charltonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-61801858598331960862012-07-15T07:13:15.733+01:002012-07-15T07:13:15.733+01:00This is a interesting perspective on the extraordi...This is a interesting perspective on the extraordinary claim. <br /><br />As an experiment, we should tell someone with this extraordinary view of prophetic dreams that his/her memories are really supernatural phenomena and see if they can provide extraordinary evidence to prove their memories are real.<br /><br />I suspect that might prove to be quite the task.<br /><br />Prophetic dreams are a can of worms though as the mechanism for how they work is unknown.<br /><br />I'm with you on their commonplace occurrence though. I don't view matching dreams as anything but normal.Lisahttp://www.weirddreams.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-92037612518977083882011-11-06T16:16:28.882+00:002011-11-06T16:16:28.882+00:00@Dale - "isn't this outlook what we find ...@Dale - "isn't this outlook what we find in Seraphim Rose's book about Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future?"<br /><br />Yes indeed it is. <br /><br />This is *Neo*-paganism - a modern belief in the inevitable goodness of spiritual experience - or, at least, that it is easy to control spiritual experience so that it benign if you want to to be. <br /><br />The Neo-pagan expectation is that if that your intentions are good in seeking advanced spiritual experience, if you are a 'good person' (as if there were many of those!) then so will be the outcome. <br /><br />The problem is, of course, that it is so very *seldom* that intentions are good - good intentions (based on Love, Humility, Worship) - these are exceedingly rare in the world of today. <br /><br />Modern intentions are almost universally seeking of power, pride and pleasure.<br /><br />When these are the intent, any spiritual or religious experience will almost certainly be an Evil one - bolstering of *self*-worship.Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-77825891604183011942011-11-06T15:51:22.983+00:002011-11-06T15:51:22.983+00:00The prejudice against the paranormal that you desc...The prejudice against the paranormal that you describe, Dr. Charlton, has lost much ground with ordinary people, and I believe is losing ground with the elites, too. Increasingly, what Christians will have to contend with, I suspect, will not be materialism, but a "Therian spirituality." "Therian"=of the Beast, i.e. false religion. There's a rather good little book by a pastor named Baue called The Spiritual Society<br /><br />http://books.google.com/books?id=KJX5AXw7-FMC&pg=PA194&lpg=PA194&dq=baue+spiritual+society&source=bl&ots=DHuQ5p5Km7&sig=4d-oN6QSbnZheZM5GBoU509D3Tw&hl=en&ei=16u2Tu6tB-qe2AX_4rHODQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false<br /><br />that discusses reasons why this change is evidently occurring, drawing on the thought of the sociologist Pitirim Sorokin. But never mind that; isn't this outlook what we find in Seraphim Rose's book about Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future?Wurmbrandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17345523517796356674noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-82719078909218211272011-11-06T05:56:04.650+00:002011-11-06T05:56:04.650+00:00This is a wonderful post.
I note that almost ever...This is a wonderful post.<br /><br />I note that almost every human culture has recorded encounters with ghosts - the spirits of the dead.<br /><br />I personally encourage living people to talk to ghosts, and I claim that such conversations are not necessarily heretical.<br /><br />I am reminded of the findings of the Church:<b><br />The Congregation of the Inquisition, 25 June, 1840, decreed:<br /><br /> Where all error, sorcery, and invocation of the demon, implicit or explicit, is excluded, the mere use of physical means which are otherwise lawful, is not morally forbidden, provided it does not aim at unlawful or evil results. </b><br /><br />See also:<br />http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14221a.htmAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-88950155827394253832011-11-05T22:03:24.956+00:002011-11-05T22:03:24.956+00:00"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary e..."Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".<br /><br />Such baby-talk. Do interesting claims require interesting evidence, florid claims florid evidence?deariemenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-17899557883104895262011-11-05T18:18:22.133+00:002011-11-05T18:18:22.133+00:00@HOJ - thanks for the kind words about TP.
The w...@HOJ - thanks for the kind words about TP. <br /><br />The whole thing hinges on what counts as extraordinary, and who gets to define it and on what grounds. <br /><br />In the science I know best, medical research, established ideas are often the product of (pharamaceutical) marketing, not science.<br /><br />And other established ideas are sometimes created and more often sustained by cash infusions (eg from government) - the fact they have zero scientific validity becomes irrelevant since the money pump creates status. <br /><br />Another example - the plain and obvious fact that both general intelligence and personality vary, are predictive, and are substantially inherited - is now treated as an extraordinary claim - for political reasons. <br /><br />So, if ideas are truly extraordinary that is one thing, but in real life what is treated as extraordinary may be the plain and obvious truth. <br /><br />And many 'parapsychological' phenomena ought to be treated not as extraordinary but as 'ordinary' matters of experience - like love.Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-41736364534604111492011-11-05T16:28:07.425+00:002011-11-05T16:28:07.425+00:00As they say: "You couldn't make it up&quo...As they say: "You couldn't make it up". <br /><br />Psychic dreams are a reality, at least in my world: <br />Finding myself in the middle of a hurricane, that would shortly vaporize my trimaran, and almost vaporize me, along with it, I became aware of a dream, six months before, that laid out, in great detail, the very events I was then living through. <br />Knowing how it would end was probably instrumental in my survival.The Crowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04323413604073160469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-18087795880438932062011-11-05T16:24:35.685+00:002011-11-05T16:24:35.685+00:00"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary e..."Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" seems like simple common sense to me. Indeed, if more people took this idea to heart, political correctness wouldn't stand a chance.<br /><br />Isn't this really at the heart of what true science is about? If someone makes a claim that is at variance with the established theories, they should be required to work extremely hard to overturn them, since the established theories have proved themselves useful up till now. In essence, this is a conservative statement.<br /><br />The statistics you cite on the percentage of people who believe in psychic dreams are not convincing to me anymore than the statistics on the number of people in Britain who think that multiculturalism or the euro are great ideas makes me want to change my opinion about them.<br /><br />"Psychic" dreams may be interesting and they may be revealing, but to posit that they are factually extrasensory or precognitive is an extraordinary claim in my book.<br /><br />----------------<br /><br />I am enjoying reading the final version of "Thought Prison". The part about PC's tactical use of multiculturalism as a weapon against culture in general is brilliant. Diversity for this crowd actually works out in practice to mean total conformity.HenryOrientJnrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-577827517043442312011-11-05T15:33:12.477+00:002011-11-05T15:33:12.477+00:00"So, why are psychic dreams counted as extrao..."So, why are psychic dreams counted as extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary evidence?"<br /><br />It's extraordinary given someone like Sagan's theories about how the world work. Sagan is smarter and better informed than most people. Therefore, it's Sagan's theories that matter when evaluating phenomena like this.<br /><br />(Or something like that.)<br /><br />To the extent that there is something to explain, it is how to explain that something *seems to* be the case.ajbhttp://anthonyburgoyne.comnoreply@blogger.com