tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post2629399327542510327..comments2024-03-29T14:41:00.974+00:00Comments on Bruce Charlton's Notions: Theosis and free agency Bruce Charltonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-30289684377179161912013-03-03T06:39:56.893+00:002013-03-03T06:39:56.893+00:00Two good answers here.
If we conceptualize the a...Two good answers here. <br /><br />If we conceptualize the afterlife as extended time, Adam G says:<br /><br />"once you realize that post-mortal me and mortal me are the same person, you realize that my total post-mortal embrace of the good is *part* of my libertarian free will."<br /><br />I would put this as follows: our free agency allows us to take an *oath* to embrace good and reject evil; and we are able to adhere forever to that oath.<br /><br />This leads to the problem that it is easy to imagine that in endless time, sooner or later, we would probably break the oath; but perhaps the fact we can live without end yet without any possibility of breaking the oath could perhaps be regarded as part of the work of Christ - a gift of firmness of purpose, of integrity.<br /><br />*<br /><br />If eternity is seen as 'out of time', and death a transition form Time to Timelessness, then Sylvie DR's answer is a clear account:<br /><br />"Once we pass into eternity and become spiritualized creatures, our last choice becomes definitive"<br /><br />This leaves open the problem of conceptualizing eternity and the transition - a problem which I find so severe that it disrupts my faith - but nonetheless this answer (which is the Platonic/ Boethian/ Augustine answer, I understand) has been the standard one for Christian intellectuals since a couple of centuries after Christ.<br /><br />*<br /><br />I have a third answer which I will put into today's posting.Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-7765266777299584762013-03-03T06:29:09.827+00:002013-03-03T06:29:09.827+00:00The scriptures talk a lot about submitting your wi...The scriptures talk a lot about submitting your will, surrendering your will. Maybe this is why.Adam G.http://www.jrganymede.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-33696244563758839472013-03-03T01:51:51.390+00:002013-03-03T01:51:51.390+00:00I think some part of the answer lies in this:
ht...I think some part of the answer lies in this: <br /><br />http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+2%3A9&version=KJV<br /><br />Adam before the fall was only an icon of God (image and likeness); after the resurrection and theosis man shall become God’s *son*, equal of Lord Jesus Christ. Christ didn’t choose evil, so shall the righteous ones saved in the new world to come – in a way unimaginable for us now (because, even believers, we’re still under the influence of sin AND Satan/evil spirits).<br /><br />Pierrenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-82488479756648422732013-03-02T20:37:22.371+00:002013-03-02T20:37:22.371+00:00Our free choices are dependent of events and our s...Our free choices are dependent of events and our state in time. Once we pass into eternity and become spiritualized creatures, our last choice becomes definitive, like the angels’ one. The purpose of Christian life is precisely to let God infuse his Divine Life into us as much we can receive it, so that at the moment of death there is less risk of making a bad choice and we are immediately born into beatitude.<br /><br />Theosis – becoming a saint – is learning in advance to live the real life promised to us. Through the Divine Liturgy (the Mass), God suspends secular time to make us enter into sacred time and live a moment in eternal reality (almost always unfelt but faith tells us it is so). Every Christian may let God expand this glimpse to a larger area of his life through the practice of contemplative prayer, which is the door to sanctity, and is called the way to perfection, or the interior life, or, like St. Teresa de Jesus put it, the Interior Castle or the Mansions.<br /><br />An interesting thing to note about the Fifth Mansions of the Interior Castle is that it they are characterized by the union of our will to the will of God, so that there is no more question of changing our mind in this life unless we abandon prayer: not what I want, but what you want, Father. It does not mean that we are not free anymore but that we are freer than we can ever be to do the right things.<br /><br />Links:<br />Complete text of <i>The Interior Castle or The Mansions</i> of St. Teresa de Jesus (of Avila): http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/index.htm<br /><br />Teachings of a great Carmelite theologian about St. Teresa’s<i>Interior Castle:</i> Father Marie-Eugene of the Child Jesus, O.C.D., <i>I Want To See God</i> Ave Maria Press, 1997-10-01 - 549 pages (translated from <i>Je veux voir Dieu</i>, Ed. du Carmel, 1949) : http://books.google.ca/books/about/I_Want_to_See_God.html?id=4nrSQgAACAAJ<br /><br />Brief overview of <i>The Interior Castle</i> seen through <i>I Want To See God</i>:<br />1st Mansions: The person merely avoids mortal sin and has not yet begun mental prayer (oracion), which is the door to the interior castle.<br />2nd Mansions: Entering the prayer life; mostly vocal prayers at this stage (prayers with words recited vocally or silently); personal action and effort in spiritual fight and temptation; often too much activity.<br />3rd Mansions: Life of regular prayer and reasonable Christian activity according to one’s obligations.<br />4th Mansions: Night of the Senses (active night: detachment of imperfections and worldly goods); mental prayer makes way to contemplative prayer, or prayer of Quiet (conversation without words with Our Lord).<br />5th Mansions: Union of the will with God’s will.<br />6th Mansions: Passive Night of the Spirit; personal faults and evil tendencies disappear; formation of the saint and apostle, Spiritual Espousal (engagement).<br />7th Mansions: Transforming Union (sanctity), Spiritual MarriageSylvie D. Rousseauhttp://sylvietheolog.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-20884172097068191772013-03-02T18:25:11.286+00:002013-03-02T18:25:11.286+00:00This is a better summation of my comment:
http://...This is a better summation of my comment:<br /><br />http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unequallyyoked/2013/01/god-and-the-moral-law-in-mormonism.html#comment-129196Adam G.http://www.jrganymede.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-80970295091300621072013-03-02T18:11:41.548+00:002013-03-02T18:11:41.548+00:00I think you should read the discussion that starts...I think you should read the discussion that starts here ---<br />http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unequallyyoked/2013/01/god-and-the-moral-law-in-mormonism.html#comment-125378<br />--with the comment "we don't have free will in heaven."<br /><br />Assuming that you are talking about libertarian free will, the kind that isn't wholly determined by one's internal character, then I agree that it is impossible for a being to be 100% assured of fully embracing the good and having libertarian free will at the same time.<br /><br />At the same *time.* Time is the key here.<br /><br />If I have libertarian free will during mortality, and use it to mold my character such that after mortality I am no longer capable of choosing evil, am I a free person after mortality? If you treat my post-mortal self as a separate person from my mortal self, the answer is no. But once you realize that post-mortal me and mortal me are the same person, you realize that my total post-mortal embrace of the good is *part* of my libertarian free will. To put it in more philosophical terms, a choice is free if it is the *result* of libertarian free will.<br /><br />That argument assumes the view of eternity where its endless duration of time. If you assume that eternity is timelessness, its even more obvious how libertarian free will is compatible with embracing the good throughout eternity. My one basic choice for good and evil isn't being repeated, it just is.<br /><br />Adam G.http://www.jrganymede.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-63194738677473082132013-03-02T15:04:08.469+00:002013-03-02T15:04:08.469+00:00@GG - it is strange, in a way, that this matter is...@GG - it is strange, in a way, that this matter is not more discussed - but I think the reason is that most Christians do not recognize how central free agency is to being human; and that it must be a feature of resurrected Man as well. <br /><br />I am working on a 'story' of this which I hope to post soon - it necessitates a pre-mortal pre-incarnate spirit existence of the soul, with mortality as primarily regarded as an experience rather than a test - such that for the soul, even living very briefly as a baby is an experience of incarnate mortality of qualitative value to post-mortal (mostly resurrected) life.Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-78137824266545140702013-03-02T13:25:51.761+00:002013-03-02T13:25:51.761+00:00I just realized my previous post was essentially b...I just realized my previous post was essentially based on the argument you already mentioned, that "all temptation being removed", sorry!George Goerlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07916687977887167466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-75965243646856632162013-03-02T13:23:50.363+00:002013-03-02T13:23:50.363+00:00We can witness that a sane person would never murd...We can witness that a sane person would never murder their child. Yet free choice doesn't outright prevent them from doing so.<br /><br />Perhaps in Heaven we become more sane, or come into full knowledge of God.<br /><br />(This leaves me wondering why bother with this life again then, if our purpose is a test, etc.)George Goerlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07916687977887167466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-88681341496263102592013-03-02T13:03:04.416+00:002013-03-02T13:03:04.416+00:00@BB - At one level it is a mystery of course; but ...@BB - At one level it is a mystery of course; but all mysteries have an analogy or we wouldn't even recognize that they were mysteries.<br /><br />I don't think the habit story works; not if it is assumed (which I think we have to assume) that a sinner can repent and be saved then die; or a sinner may suddenly see the light then almost straightway become a martyr for Christ - long before there was a chance for habits to be established Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-18260556601060728212013-03-02T10:20:44.782+00:002013-03-02T10:20:44.782+00:00Maybe choosing good becomes such a deeply ingraine...Maybe choosing good becomes such a deeply ingrained habit that it becomes, at some point, a permanent part of our nature.<br /><br />I think the Orthodox would chastise us both as too "western" for trying to understand this holy mystery.Bruce B.noreply@blogger.com