tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post4657925399454703098..comments2024-03-29T12:03:37.344+00:00Comments on Bruce Charlton's Notions: Atheist objections to divine morality - reasons to reject the reality of creationBruce Charltonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-8410129760178027302018-11-15T17:09:26.075+00:002018-11-15T17:09:26.075+00:00BB - It solves one problem - but doesn't make ...BB - It solves one problem - but doesn't make us genuinely independent of God. Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-30941844493529859812018-11-15T16:32:12.837+00:002018-11-15T16:32:12.837+00:00If by "satisfaction" we include resoluti...If by "satisfaction" we include resolution of the most temporally proximate motivation by acting upon it, then I suppose that is correct. That is all the satisfaction they can ever have. But this is nothing more than what every volitional being with any agency experiences by virtue of every decisive response, it desires something and does something in an attempt to get what it desires.<br /><br />The satisfaction of "doing something". But no being with agency can ever <i>avoid</i> "doing something" (even by doing 'nothing').<br /><br />But in the sense of bringing about a desired <i>consequence</i>, satisfaction is eternally beyond the prideful.Chiu ChunLinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03519192610708043962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-69079801741687701062018-11-15T15:31:39.777+00:002018-11-15T15:31:39.777+00:00Don’t know if this is heretical but is it possible...Don’t know if this is heretical but is it possible that our will is uncreated i.e. eternal? That the imago dei means that at least this small aspect of our being is part of God, begotten not created. Maybe our intellect and memory (along with our physical reality) is created but our will is uncreated.Bruce B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16110868564307280515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-5926631276624541062018-11-14T19:41:31.979+00:002018-11-14T19:41:31.979+00:00@CCL - I disagree, for the reasons in the post. Fo...@CCL - I disagree, for the reasons in the post. For some people - being able to defy God, and reject creation, gives more satisfaction than anything else. Of course, it very seldom stops there - probably because of what motivates the defiance/ rejection. Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-67151963185112239842018-11-14T18:00:05.074+00:002018-11-14T18:00:05.074+00:00The choice to reject God (and Creation) can be log...The choice to reject God (and Creation) can be logical, but it cannot be rational or reasonable. To be rational or reasonable, the logic of a decision must be oriented towards getting something you want.<br /><br />Aversion to God can be logical, but it is fundamentally irrational because there is nothing to desire about the alternative. It can be logical because logic only requires the application of rules to lead to a conclusion, it doesn't matter whether you like the conclusion or not. Reason has to be concerned with discovering a conclusion you want to reach. That's why the phrase "<i>quod erat demonstrandum</i>" is an important signifier of successful reasoning.<br /><br />Reason also has to conform to the rules of logic in reaching the conclusion, violating logic to reach a fixed conclusion is a sign of bad reasoning. But applying logic to reach a conclusion without regard to whether it has any value is also unreasonable, it is what we term an irrational process. Irrational processes often have a logic to them, but reflect no meaningful intention.<br /><br />For example, Darwinian evolution should be an irrational process, it follows rules to reach some conclusion, but there is no intention behind it. Not even "survival of the fittest", since evolution could in principle produce a result of ecological collapse leading to the non-survival of pretty much all complex 'highly-evolved' life (such ecological collapses occur locally quite often in nature).<br /><br />The commonplace motive to reject God is Pride, the desire for preeminence which is impossible if one acknowledges God. But rejection of God and Creation doesn't lead to preeminence but to utter effacement, pretty much the opposite of what was desired. It is a <i>logical</i> outcome of pride, but wholly irrational.<br /><br />Love is necessary to overcome pride. But both love and pride seem to be present in degrees rather than as boolean values in each person's will. Further, it seems that each is not a fundamental value but is rather the expression through the spirit of more fundamental decisive elements of the will, which may not be easily expressible in common language, possibly being idiosyncratic at the individual level. That is to say, the underlying characteristic of the will may be immutable, but the expression of love or pride may be increased or decreased by some underlying act of will, but not the same act of will in every person.Chiu ChunLinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03519192610708043962noreply@blogger.com