tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post5259152214669438678..comments2024-03-28T14:16:42.371+00:00Comments on Bruce Charlton's Notions: Who gets resurrected? - according to the Fourth Gospel, 'only' those who believe and follow JesusBruce Charltonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-29088571206031101042018-12-01T17:22:59.106+00:002018-12-01T17:22:59.106+00:00No.
Bradly is correct.
"And many of them th...No.<br /><br />Bradly is correct.<br /><br />"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."<br /><br />Jesus naturally focuses on those who awake to everlasting life. Using "resurrection" to refer to this is mere inclusive usage. When you say "I ran" you only mean that you yourself ran, not that nobody else ran. When Jesus says that the just will be raised to everlasting life, why that is just what He is saying. It doesn't imply denial that the unjust shall also be resurrected.<br /><br />It is implicitly a statement that the resurrection of the just is more <i>important</i>...to the just, at least. But the state of the unjust in the resurrection is a matter of no small concern to them. Indeed, the just should care more about what happens to the unjust after resurrection than the unjust care about what happens to the just. That's kinda included in being "just".<br /><br />But to say that, because Jesus cares even more about the fate of the just after the resurrection than even He, as the most just, cares about the fate of the unjust, therefore the unjust are implied to not be resurrected does violence to logic and scripture.<br /><br />Hell is real. There are those who are <i>minimally</i> worthy to not be cast out of Creation entirely who still cannot abide there by any motive than fear of punishment. It is better that such punishment be administered in a strict and definite manner that they may be later free to enjoy their limited view of eternity without <i>constant</i> reminders of their <i>overall</i> unworthiness to be there. No really just person has any serious reservations on this subject. Those who aver themselves more merciful than just may be in trouble, not least because in practice justice is the prerequisite of mercy, so those who try to be <i>more</i> merciful than just will always cause far more (and worse) cruelty than they avoid.<br /><br />Hell is also a relative triviality to the just. The merciful among them are mainly concerned that the suffering of the unjust for their sins should allow them to enjoy the outskirts of Creation even if they can never enter Heaven. But purely in justice there is no real excuse not to cast them out into the abyssal darkness.<br /><br />Of course, I don't object to the abyssal darkness <i>anyway</i>.Chiu ChunLinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03519192610708043962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-26017314558719061342018-11-30T21:11:13.533+00:002018-11-30T21:11:13.533+00:00@Carter - For reasons Ive explained elsewhere, I t...@Carter - For reasons Ive explained elsewhere, I think we have some catching up to do wrt to the Fourth Gospel. Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-40729549184495084782018-11-30T20:36:34.023+00:002018-11-30T20:36:34.023+00:00Eternal life is the kind of life God has. This is...Eternal life is the kind of life God has. This is predicted on voluntary belief in the gift of Jesus.<br /><br />The resurrection is not the same thing as eternal life, and will be available to everyone whether they are a believer or non-believer, as the revelations of living prophets in the present day have said. <br />- Carter Craft TheDoctorofOdoIslandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06654695224557150961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-50028129153485570672018-11-30T18:14:36.334+00:002018-11-30T18:14:36.334+00:00@Wade - It isn't a problem (except for being e...@Wade - It isn't a problem (except for being extra work for me) - see note added above. <br /><br />But if this matters to someone, I would hope and assume they would be prepared to invest a few hours in reading the Gospel for themselves. Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-42578993013355388522018-11-30T17:16:30.767+00:002018-11-30T17:16:30.767+00:00If "the point is made repeatedly through the ...If "the point is made repeatedly through the Gospel" then it oughtn't be a problem to cite an example thereof.Wade McKenziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00505917422266320190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-2281929499159958082018-11-30T04:19:18.950+00:002018-11-30T04:19:18.950+00:00@Wade - The point is made repeatedly through the G...@Wade - The point is made repeatedly through the Gospel, and I have told anyone interested what to do as confirmation: simply read though the Gospel with this point in mind, and see for yourself. You need to understand that I am not trying to persuade other people, simply reporting my own discoveries. Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-44315587272789997182018-11-29T22:06:53.846+00:002018-11-29T22:06:53.846+00:00Prof. Charlton: You characterize John 5:28-9 as a ...Prof. Charlton: You characterize John 5:28-9 as a "contradiction" vis a vis the remainder of the fourth gospel or some portion thereof. In order for it to be a "contradiction", it seems to me, it would be necessary for there to exist another passage in the gospel where it is more or less explicitly stated that "those that have done evil" (or some similar phraseology) will not be resurrected.<br /><br />Bradley Matthews cites the teaching from Revelation concerning the idea clearly stated there that believers and unbelievers alike will be resurrected. You reply, "The Fourth Gospel is equally clear...", by which you presumably mean that there is a passage in the fourth gospel that explicitly states that not all--i.e. believers and unbelievers alike--will be resurrected.<br /><br />Can you cite such a passage?<br /><br />Wade McKenziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00505917422266320190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-2078543435225587422018-11-28T23:04:04.268+00:002018-11-28T23:04:04.268+00:00@Tobias - I think pretty much the same. It is to d...@Tobias - I think pretty much the same. It is to do with teh development of consciousness - the world is a different place as consciousness develops, becasue consciousness participates in the making of the world. It seems pretty clear that people in the modern era have come to find the idea of Hell as incomprehensible or incredible. <br /><br />@Andrew - It was just an aside; but my point is that we need to decide how to establish primacy where there is diagreement - even the choice to regard all parts equally is a decision about primacy. The decision is unavoidable - even if the decision is to kick the can down the road and decide that God inspired the Bible compilers to include only that which is of equal authority.<br /><br />@Bradley - The Fourth Gospel is equally clear and the references are more numerous and consistent. So - which source is correct (and why?). <br /><br />Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-30704476249648887882018-11-28T21:46:45.501+00:002018-11-28T21:46:45.501+00:00I think you underestimate the sureness of Paul'...I think you underestimate the sureness of Paul's understanding of revelation. I don't believe he verified by intuition but rather had direct experiences of the divine in his spirit. That is, he developed that part of him capable of directly experiencing God prior to death and received God's revelation directly (direct knowledge, not via communication as you might say) and then taught it to the early Church as best he could.<br /><br />-Andrew E.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15071413357901396149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-50364626535871434012018-11-28T20:01:37.639+00:002018-11-28T20:01:37.639+00:00If people don't choose Christ, and don't w...If people don't choose Christ, and don't want to resurrect, and they can stay in the spirit world for as long as they wish, what happens to the traditional punishment in hell idea in your (developing?) theology?<br /><br />I'd also like to add that I've always thought the idea of an everlasting hell, or a burning up of the soul as punishment was the appropriate theology for people at a certain level - for those who feel the need to punish, or that someone should be punishing those who deserve it. It is how such people would 'hear' Christ's message. A person who is further on in theosis would not need a theology with a permanent hell, and somehow they would know and understand Christ's word in a higher sense. In other words, the punishing aspect of God would be seen to be illusory, and just an aspect of the lower understanding of those not ready to hear a truer message. A return to a spirit existence, with a chance to reincarnate and learn again, sounds like a higher understanding to me. <br /><br />Your thoughts would be appreciated very much.<br /><br />TobiasTobiashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17440968389956347350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-27651342293404902072018-11-28T16:38:00.524+00:002018-11-28T16:38:00.524+00:00@Hrothgar - "I don't think that candidatu...@Hrothgar - "I don't think that candidature for reincarnation is purely about having accepted Jesus though, which implies that it would be mainly or solely for those who had followed other belief systems."<br /><br />I don't understand this; unless maybe I expressed myself badly. I meant reincarnation would need to be chosen; and one reason may be that spirits who failed to take best advantage of mortality - enabling them to move onto the next step of theosis - may wish to 'try again'. <br /><br />There may be other reason, indeed surely there would be since every individual is different from eternity. Some spiritually advanced individuals (who chose to be saved and are advanced in theosis) - such as John the Baptist - may defer resurrection and volunatrily return to help others; presumably if John was a reincarnate he came back to baptise Jesus, primarily. I have a hunch that this is why some spiritually wise people (e.g. Barfield, Arkle) believe in reincarnation as progression - since this was/ is in fact the case for themselves, and they know it to be. But they need not be correct about others. <br /><br />"(What would you count as valid revelation, by the way?) " - It doesn't matter what *I* count; it is the inner knowledge of each person that is significant. A characteristic of 'primary thinking'/ Final Participation is that it is self-validating. <br />Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-73307544194627210872018-11-28T15:22:38.383+00:002018-11-28T15:22:38.383+00:00We could even speculate (and it would be a specula...<i>We could even speculate (and it would be a speculation unless confirmed by revelation) that the world contains some mixture of newly incarnated mortals, and a proportion of reincarnates who did not accept Jesus in previous lives but have returned (presumably by choice) to enable further chances.</i><br /><br />Well, this is approximately what I believe, though I'm not sure whether it is as a result of receiving actual revelation on the topic. (What would you count as valid revelation, by the way?) <br /><br />I don't think that candidature for reincarnation is purely about having <i>accepted</i> Jesus though, which implies that it would be mainly or solely for those who had followed other belief systems. We also need to bear in mind that there are a large proportion of Christians, perhaps especially in modern times, who essentially hold the belief that Spirit is superior to Body - so, while substantially accepting Christ and what they understand of his teachings, they do <i>not</i> believe in a literal bodily resurrection, imagining Heaven as a state of pure timeless spirit-existence and actually preferring to seek this. This is likely to prove unsatisfactory for them once actually experienced though - a dissatisfaction which I would say is likely to make them prime candidates for later reincarnation. <br /><br />An additional thought: I really have nothing very sound besides personal intuition on which to base this idea, but I strongly suspect that a form of resurrection may also be available to those non-Christians who nevertheless had devout faith that they would undergo a form of bodily resurrection in an afterlife. Obviously this ressurection, based on something other than Love and lacking explicit faith in Christ, may seem very sub-optimal to Christians, but it may also serve as a basis for further progression in its own right, assuming true post-mortal progress and growth in the ressurected state still occurs (as would not happen in a pure spirit state).<br /><br />I think I agree on Heaven having to be an opt-in state. One question that remains very open to me is what proportion even of believing Christians actually would choose to opt in once they understand what this entails, especially in our times, where a form of eternal peace or bliss seems to be more frequently sought.Hrothgarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03568010718085328982noreply@blogger.com