tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post5296884704769891399..comments2024-03-28T21:32:26.550+00:00Comments on Bruce Charlton's Notions: The un-understandability of abstraction: or, let's be clear about God (reflections on Owen Barfield)Bruce Charltonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-11164978904184750182016-01-13T19:50:08.610+00:002016-01-13T19:50:08.610+00:00Ok. I trust that your are telling me this because ...Ok. I trust that your are telling me this because you feel that it is for my own good and I will try and learn what lessons I can from that, especially about thinking about why I am asking the questions. I would like to understand who God is and what he wants from me and learn to overcome my short comings and to grow spiritually. I have a long way to go but I am learning a great deal every day.Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-24232546734913742062016-01-13T10:55:17.284+00:002016-01-13T10:55:17.284+00:00@David - Never mind what I think about it - I have...@David - Never mind what I think about it - I have read many scores of your comments - and it seems clear to me that *for you* asking question after question (without thinking enough about the questions, or why you are asking them, or what you expect to do with the answers) is not just idle curiosity; but a snare, destructive, and perhaps your personal demon. Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-8434829084763013252016-01-13T08:10:33.037+00:002016-01-13T08:10:33.037+00:00I see.
Well I wasn't stating it necessarily ...I see.<br /><br /><br />Well I wasn't stating it necessarily as a challenge to faith, I just wanted to know what other people imagine when they close their eyes and think of God and how you imagined him, and whether you find you must resort to abstractions through the lack of being able to be more concrete as I find. I don't see anything wrong at all with such speculation. Indeed it only seems natural and healthy. Perhaps young children are just not quite as closed-minded yet to ask probing questions. If people did not enjoy imagining such things then the world would be a rather dry and humourless place. We would not have had they joys of Terry Pratchett and the disc world series or Douglas Adams 'Hitch hikers Guide to the galaxy' or many other wonderful works of literature. <br /><br />There again what is so wrong with the humility of just saying "I don't know" Which seems to be the actual situation here on both sides. It is increasingly clear to me that most other people know less than they admit they do about the mysteries of existence and hence the evasiveness on direct questioning. The real answer is we just don't know the answers to many many things...or through a glass darkly as the quote goes...<br /><br />I do hope my 'why?' questions have not irritated you too much. Have a good day :-)Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-37755253221154041902016-01-13T06:48:09.848+00:002016-01-13T06:48:09.848+00:00@David - If God is known real, and creator, and is...@David - If God is known real, and creator, and is our Father then these questions become matters for curiosity and speculation rather than challenges to faith. <br /><br />I have always said it is trivially easy to come up with streams of questions upon questions. Three year old children sometimes do it when then ask 'why?' again and again, until the adult runs out of answers; and it doesn't prove anything either way - a computer could do it.<br /><br />It is not a serious way to proceed, it is indeed a snare - and you need to learn to stop taking it seriously and seek answers only to the questions (or most likley the single question) you *really* need answering in your heart. <br /><br />*<br /><br />This is the practice of Eastern sages and of othe Holy men through the ages: <br /><br />You may ask one question.<br /><br />You will receive one answer.<br /><br />That answer must, of necessity, be brief.<br /><br />(Hence incomplete, hence distorted, hence enigmatic at best - probably ambiguous - at worst misleading.)<br /><br />Tough - that's all you can have. Choose well. <br />Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-49528452977717225692016-01-12T21:39:10.324+00:002016-01-12T21:39:10.324+00:00Furthermore if God had a human body from the outse...Furthermore if God had a human body from the outset of creation what did he stand on before he created the universe or was he just floating in the ether before he installed the laminate flooring in heaven? If God was the greatest original primordial intelligence compared to the lesser primordial intelligences such as you and I or my brothers Cat, would he not need to create his own tabernacle first before he could create ones for the first humans? Did he imagine the blue print for a humanoid and find it pleasing and so assumed it for himself first before he made us in his image or did he try out a few other possibilites first before settling on a bipedal humanoid as his favourite corporeal form. Surely a winged creature would be best placed to navigate the realm that by logical extension must have existed prior to his creation of the ground? And so at present I find myself believing in God but it is abstraction that saves me from these kind of ridiculous, comedic encounters with trying to conceptualise things concretely. Almost though I must admit it is fun, I can't see him wearing a monacle, except perhaps to make a child laugh with the brightness of his warmth and affection which is infinite and transcendent! Oh dear, I seem to have resorted to abstraction again. Seems difficult to do away with the thing? Which leads me to surmise by intuition that he doesn't necessarily want me to do so?Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-6309629518695046772016-01-12T21:26:33.078+00:002016-01-12T21:26:33.078+00:00Now imagine God talking to me, in real time, but a...Now imagine God talking to me, in real time, but also to you, but obviously not just us both, to all of the millions of Christians across the planet who are in direct conversation with him in prayer right now. But not only that, to the other billions of souls including all those who have ever died and all those not yet born, in every language that has ever been or will be or none. After all he knows every hair on my head and on yours. Suddenly the mobile phone doesn't seem so rude any more compared to this. Would it not require a billion individual God's to do this instead of a God to billions? And then how can he be simultaneously experiencing joy at a child's first word and horror at an evil murder, many will likely be happening right at this exact moment somewhere in the world as I write this. Somewhere a soul will have moved to perdition in sin another repented and returned to the fold and yet I imagine he only has attention just personally for me in prayer. There seems to be a nonsense developing here? <br /><br />In contrast, If I think of an abstract super-intelligence then that seems to be an end to the problem fairly quickly. After all why shouldn't abstract super intelligences be able to get around these kinds of problem, especially if they are outside of time, which you profess is not the case. But a concrete flesh and blood living God? Surely this must be difficult for others to conceive of and I am not alone in this? Does he wear strippy Trousers sometimes, for example, or have a range of evening clothing and a monacle? Does he eat? Does he use the bathroom? If you applaud the advantage of child - like anthropomorphic conceptions this would lead to these kind of arguably valid childlike questions? What would your answer be to such questions or would it just be...don't ask or don't be childish? But then to imagine as a Child in such terms is the supposed litmus test of transcending the confusion of abstraction. But does it not quickly seem absurd to ask obvious and simple child - like questions extending from the simple metaphysical assumption of God having a body?Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-27449186907675240242016-01-12T21:21:39.538+00:002016-01-12T21:21:39.538+00:00Bruce, perhaps you can help me by way of illustrat...Bruce, perhaps you can help me by way of illustrating how you imagine God. I tend to agree that concreteness is preferential to abstraction generally but I have some difficulties with the notion of God being a physical person beyond v general and vaguely defined terms. I can't seem to manage it without deliberately censoring all resulting thoughts extending from that original image. If I close my eyes and imagine God I get an impression of a wise father figure, an ideal man, well build, perhaps of Greek God like stature, dressed in plain or white toga or biblical clothing, a beard and long hair perhaps, his body even glows or emanates a light or warmth. He is normally smiling with an expression of consummate wisdom and warmth. I normally stop there. When I imagine him listening to my prayers I may imagine that I am the only audience he had at that exact time and that he is devoting his entire attention to me like a doting parent concerned to understand my childish gibberings. It is what might be summarised as 'quality time.' Quite a lovely sentiment and a wonderful privalege to participate in such 'imagined' conversations with him standing in a nest of clouds somewhere. At least that is what I see when I close my eyes and imagine talking to God, what do you see when you imagine him?<br /><br />My problems come a bit later. If I imagine that I was talking to you and I knew you were on your mobile phone or watching TV as we were talking, I would probably think you a bit rude or distracted or both. The time we were spending together would not be 'quality time' as by definition, this would require that we listen and speak intimately to the exclusion of all else. In fact, in my experience this is what typifies the most rewarding and productive conversations. If I really listen then the other person really feels heard and valued. If I am thinking what I will have for dinner or what I will say next when you stop talking,or you are really listening to someone else, the conversation will be significantly impoverished...Davidnoreply@blogger.com