tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post6777871168032551939..comments2024-03-29T15:06:19.332+00:00Comments on Bruce Charlton's Notions: Group selection and WD HamiltonBruce Charltonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-35055861921899204382019-10-07T12:29:03.679+01:002019-10-07T12:29:03.679+01:00Too big a topic for comments! - But word search gr...Too big a topic for comments! - But word search group selection and you'll find more on this. Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-71305636148897315872019-10-07T11:16:18.931+01:002019-10-07T11:16:18.931+01:00I'm no scientist but it seems to me that the u...I'm no scientist but it seems to me that the unit of survival is not the individual but the tribe.Sackersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17284329249862764601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-28741080119618605382015-08-21T06:23:16.364+01:002015-08-21T06:23:16.364+01:00@Jonathan - I have a post half written on this top...@Jonathan - I have a post half written on this topic which I am trying to clarify - but I think you have put your finger on it with that word Teleology. The main biological problem that needs explaining is higher forms of organization (eg multicellular organisms compared with single cell, social organisms compared with solitary). So, there needs to be an overarching purpose in order to organize the lower level, which in this instance is survival and reproduction of the higher level. <br /><br />I see this all through biology, including the origins of life. The problem has never been solved and has indeed barely been addressed in the mainstream - although it is the same problem which has been discussed by 'mathematical' theoretical biologists interested in chaos, complexity, and fields - Goethe, D'Arcy Thomson, Waddington, Kauffman, Sheldrake. The difficulty is that they see the problem and propose specific 'solutions; at a very high level of generality and in a way which (I believe) is metaphysical rather than scientific, but without acknowledging the fact. Therefore they have proved very difficult to operationalize.<br /><br />Perhaps the most convincing way to be more specific is to regard lower order entities (interacting systems of RNA molecules, of cells, or individual animals) as cooperating to perform *cognitive* processes - so that they have the ability to model the future, and forsee the consequences - therefore can suppress selfishness and enforce group-ishness. But that is perhaps just kicking the problem further down the street - because we need to know why these systems hang together and interact, what keeps this activity going. <br /><br />Anyway, I take the option of saying that we can detect group selection at work, as the most plausible process, but leave aside the specifics of exactly how it is working. In other words it is important to recognize that it can exist, and the circumstances; but we can then stop at that point. <br /><br />At present mainstream biology is in the position of saying that we don't believe in group selection 'because' we don't understand how it could work - which doesn't make much sense. <br /><br />Of course, the vast majority of 'biologists' (more than 99 percent) are only concerned with careers, publishing, grants etc. and this kind of 'understanding' stuff is of sub-zero interest, and they feel no urge or need ever to think about it. So it is something pursued by amateurs of biology, out of simple curiosity. <br /><br /> Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-9757279894518107812015-08-21T02:02:00.920+01:002015-08-21T02:02:00.920+01:00Bruce, what is an example of group selection that ...Bruce, what is an example of group selection that doesn't seem to have a "selfish gene" explanation? This whole conversation seems entirely abstract to me without knowing what such a thing might look like.<br /><br />So, you are proposing that teleology may have a role in group selection, or in how multicellular organisms came to exist without individual cells selfishly mucking up the works? Is this related to Sheldrake's morphogenetic fields? If teleology comes into play, is God the most likely source, or are there other possibilities?Jonathan Cnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-46617092250031125282015-08-08T06:16:24.865+01:002015-08-08T06:16:24.865+01:00@Ray P - Very interesting.
I think the error we ...@Ray P - Very interesting. <br /><br />I think the error we made was to assume that because some, perhaps many, examples of what looked like group selection could be explained more easily by kin selection - then this meant that *all* examples of group selection could be explained by kin selection or some other individual-level selection such as reciprocity. <br /><br />It was not really that group selection explanations were 'refuted', but that in some specific instances the group selection explanation could be replaced by a simpler and more power explanation. Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-69560421097185313862015-08-07T23:59:54.282+01:002015-08-07T23:59:54.282+01:00There must be an irony in Ed O. Wilson's story...There must be an irony in Ed O. Wilson's story of how he read Hamilton's seminal paper while on a train journey to Florida during the '60s. He described his hostility (being a group selection adherent) to Hamilton's inclusive fitness concept yet by the time he arrived at his destination he had become a convert. (Shades of the Lewis bus trip.) Now of course, he has come full circle and returned to group selection at least concerning his beloved ants. However, it appears he misunderstood Hamilton in the first place.Ray Pnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-36695443420863823912015-08-07T16:31:26.492+01:002015-08-07T16:31:26.492+01:00I don't think the subject has ever come up.I don't think the subject has ever come up. Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-55280791710609098492015-08-07T12:21:19.417+01:002015-08-07T12:21:19.417+01:00Bruce,
I guess what I am wondering is if your col...Bruce,<br /><br />I guess what I am wondering is if your colleagues are hostile to your Christianity or just ignore it, pretend it doesn't exist? I only ask because I went to a Jesuit institution (I was an atheist at the time) and the university was completely at odds with itself but, no one ever addressed this. It was totally ignored which, I found very strange but, no one else seemed to mind.Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14131427883067501547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-81125914934014642992015-08-07T04:36:51.332+01:002015-08-07T04:36:51.332+01:00@RP - Indeed, but the branch of evolutionary theor...@RP - Indeed, but the branch of evolutionary theory I used to inhabit derived from the decisive publication of The Selfish Gene, which I read as a school kid on publication, and the view of groups selection was as described. I think Dawkins personally - through most of his career anyway - regarded group selection as theoretically possible, but in practice extremely unlikely. My point here is that he, and many others in Evolutionary Biology, profess to revere Hamilton, but leave out the bits of Hamilton the do not like, but without engaging with him/ them - in this I think they probably felt they were doing him a favour (forgiving him and 'covering up' his embarrassing manias and eccentricities, such as a lifelong interest in matters related to eugenics/ dysgenics). Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-63088647503565819852015-08-07T00:52:21.884+01:002015-08-07T00:52:21.884+01:00Dawkins has a slightly more sophisticated position...Dawkins has a slightly more sophisticated position than presented (you must have read The Extended Phenotype at some point). Gene centric but he's quite happy (insists actually) to look beyond the individual organism. Why multicellular organisms exist at all concerns him greatly.Ray Pnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-42363601097035232352015-08-06T18:41:15.146+01:002015-08-06T18:41:15.146+01:00@ads - Maybe you meant to put this comment somewhe...@ads - Maybe you meant to put this comment somewhere else? But if you mean this post, nobody is really interested in ideas like this - least of all professional biologists. Having done so with this kind of thing in the past, I'm afraid I cannot any longer be bothered to publish. Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-64461019974845688132015-08-06T17:56:43.477+01:002015-08-06T17:56:43.477+01:00Bruce,
I am curious. What is the response from yo...Bruce,<br /><br />I am curious. What is the response from your colleagues when you present ideas like this? Or don't you? They must also know you are a serious Christian. Do they give you a hard time or are they respectful of your beliefs? I understand if you don't wish to comment on it publicly. <br /><br />Thanks.Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14131427883067501547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-40210364170519124912015-08-06T13:13:52.341+01:002015-08-06T13:13:52.341+01:00@BB - Yes, that would be one type of group selecti...@BB - Yes, that would be one type of group selection - you can find out more by following the link. Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-83350007415519656082015-08-06T12:19:45.699+01:002015-08-06T12:19:45.699+01:00Is group selection what Frank Salter is describing...Is group selection what Frank Salter is describing in his work on ethnic genetic interests? I follow some of the HDB blogs where Salter’s work is referenced but I don’t really understand genetics at all.Bruce B.noreply@blogger.com