tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post7139271377231715817..comments2024-03-29T12:03:37.344+00:00Comments on Bruce Charlton's Notions: The Birdemic, spiritual discernment and the Christian ChurchesBruce Charltonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-26692247863756131582021-06-15T21:57:54.445+01:002021-06-15T21:57:54.445+01:00What I meant is the Protestant has recourse to the...What I meant is the Protestant has recourse to the sacraments still even after the pastors have abdicated; the Catholic due to his theory that only the now apostate hierarchy can administer the sacraments, does not.captOBVnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-47282852437457017802021-06-15T15:03:33.311+01:002021-06-15T15:03:33.311+01:00Yes. Those Churches who were actually compelled to...Yes. Those Churches who were actually compelled to close down should have made it clear that THIS is what's going on, and that these secular rulers are no different from Communists, the Atheists of the French Revolution, and the persecuting Roman Emperors. Mention that not even the Ottoman Sultan closed down the Churches, for good measure. Make it CLEAR to their faithful that the only reason they have shut down is because of evil secular authorities. Make it clear whose side they are on.<br /><br />Problem is, they DID make it clear whose side they were on, and it's the wrong side.Rangerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12201994446688581703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-17545722535630330432021-06-15T06:19:24.504+01:002021-06-15T06:19:24.504+01:00@Joel - The successful defiance of individual chur...@Joel - The successful defiance of individual churches of minority denominations only goes to emphasize the failure of the large and majority churches. <br /><br />But we must not be sidetracked into materialism. The defiance must be spiritual primarily. Churches may be physically compelled, but they should never endorse evil in their hearts. <br /><br />What the churches actually have done is publicly, and officially, to celebrate their own enslavement to the evil worldly powers; and to encourage others happily to submit to this evil. Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-28932771416647060982021-06-15T06:14:08.955+01:002021-06-15T06:14:08.955+01:00@cOBV - As I said, the Protestant *churches* apost...@cOBV - As I said, the Protestant *churches* apostasy of the past 15 months as been of a different nature; just as devastating spiritually. <br /><br />But the RCC's failure is clearer in proportion as their system is clearer, more philosophically coherent, and more explicit. Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-90675134528346364452021-06-15T06:11:38.230+01:002021-06-15T06:11:38.230+01:00@Jon - No, we are not forgetting - the point is in...@Jon - No, we are not forgetting - the point is included in the argument as set-out. Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-82306749810382277242021-06-15T00:39:06.270+01:002021-06-15T00:39:06.270+01:00@Jonny McGee -
One major difference, is that I'...@Jonny McGee -<br />One major difference, is that I'd imagine those devout Christian souls who gave way to the persecutions of Diocletian were repentant.<br /><br />I'll go a step further and say they were probably penitent for the rest of their lives, haunted even.<br /><br />As opposed to the current situation with the RCC, no repentance, or even much in the way of mere regret. Sometimes they even seem to celebrate their submission to secular anti-Christian authorities. They are, at the very least, convinced they did "the right thing".Evan Pangburnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-40616683417801876042021-06-14T22:43:17.568+01:002021-06-14T22:43:17.568+01:00I visited a friend's SSPX parish a few months ...I visited a friend's SSPX parish a few months ago. They never closed or masked (despite the state laws in effect). It was clear that they took their sacraments seriously, and continue to do so. At least here in the US, it is not at all odd to find churches (of various denominations) like this, and might even be the rule in more conservative locations.<br /><br />What to draw from this, I don't know, I present it as a data point.Joelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-86660025330626810842021-06-14T21:44:29.356+01:002021-06-14T21:44:29.356+01:00Protestants don't have to worry aboug Donayism...Protestants don't have to worry aboug Donayism because the validity of the sacraments is not tied to the validity of a priesthood. The father can administer communion at home to his family if need be.captOBVnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-87544850817179805632021-06-14T21:25:12.198+01:002021-06-14T21:25:12.198+01:00Aren't we forgetting that in many countries ch...Aren't we forgetting that in many countries churches were just not allowed by the government to hold masses & other sacraments?Jonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-79596122728767550442021-06-14T18:41:41.992+01:002021-06-14T18:41:41.992+01:00Donatism 2.0? You mean, denying the validity and s...Donatism 2.0? You mean, denying the validity and salvific value of the Sacraments? Are you sure that the Donatists are not those who CLOSED the Churches, saying "Public Health is more important than Sacraments, which are unessential", but rather those who point out that closing Churches is a HUGE deal?<br /><br />I'm an Orthodox, a recent convert from Catholicism. Though the response of my parish was not ideal in my opinion, it wasn't awful either. For all its warts, it never denied the Sacraments to it's parishioners. For me, that's the bare minimum. <br /><br />But for those who ARE in a parish that closed down entirely, I believe the right thing to do is to get the Sacraments from your parish now they're again available, but in the spirit of someone who's entering enemy territory to snatch a great treasure. Whatever you do, stop supporting it financially, yes, even with the small collection box donations. Clearly state why if asked.Rangerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12201994446688581703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-71332766112951891362021-06-14T18:00:27.985+01:002021-06-14T18:00:27.985+01:00"Yes, to an astonishing extent. And the syste..."Yes, to an astonishing extent. And the system is global - for the first time ever. This is one of many reason why analogies with past civilizations/ empires are only very partial - and mostly misleading."<br /><br />For the first time ever of course because there could not possibly have been a global anything in the past for this to be the second time around, third time around. It is the first and final globalism because once insantiated there is no redoubt no geographical square mile on he globe not under its control. Eventually it will be illegal to disagree with LGBT even in international waters and the Mauritania desert. This of course leads to an acedia never seen on this earth. c.f. all he young men on welfare who don't have the energy to even try and create a family or do anything but laze on the couch and play video games. <br /><br />Pop Pianonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-54775346226085698532021-06-14T16:48:49.517+01:002021-06-14T16:48:49.517+01:00@ben - "the leaders of institutions are all t...@ben - "the leaders of institutions are all the same people"<br /><br />Yes, to an astonishing extent. And the system is global - for the first time ever. This is one of many reason why analogies with past civilizations/ empires are only very partial - and mostly misleading. Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-11533614615652652192021-06-14T16:27:38.508+01:002021-06-14T16:27:38.508+01:00"...denied the faith under Diocletian's a..."...denied the faith under Diocletian's and subsequent persecutions."<br /><br />The churches closed themselves like nearly everything else did because everything is part of the same system, the leaders of institutions are all the same people. The church leaders are roughly analogous to Diocletian, not persecuted by someone like him.bennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-85444635036237018522021-06-14T15:48:22.021+01:002021-06-14T15:48:22.021+01:00@JM - "This is just Donatist 2.0" -
No...@JM - "This is just Donatist 2.0" - <br /><br />No it is not. Read the arguments. Think about them. <br /><br />Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-20547282750570867392021-06-14T14:11:12.467+01:002021-06-14T14:11:12.467+01:00This is just Donatist 2.0. In the fourth and fifth...This is just Donatist 2.0. In the fourth and fifth centuries, the pre-schism Church had to address the validity of sacraments administered by clergy who denied the faith under Diocletian's and subsequent persecutions. This is the same thing with different trappings. The Church always grappled with worldliness, for as Our Blessed Lord said, "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." Yes, leaders sometimes don't lead, lead poorly, or lead in the wrong direction, but as Saint Peter said, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life."Jonny McGeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03955015683316400788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-25884117818210514362021-06-14T11:55:45.532+01:002021-06-14T11:55:45.532+01:00@Karl - "only very few people are capable of ...@Karl - "only very few people are capable of discernment."<br /><br />I don't know - because many of them will not even try to discern for themselves. <br /><br />For instance because they regard it as sinful (e.g. 'prideful' or disobedient). <br /><br />A lot of this is perhaps unconsciousness of how much people already discern for themselves (e.g. in choosing a church, in choosing who/ what instruction to follow from within that church etc). <br /><br />This is why it is Now necessary consciously and explicitly to engage in personal discernment - rather than trying to deny or avoid it. <br /><br />Only when people are consciously and conscientiously Trying to discern, would we see how many people Really *cannot* do it. Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-58612582325617982692021-06-14T11:00:37.632+01:002021-06-14T11:00:37.632+01:00"When it comes to matters of religion and spi..."When it comes to matters of religion and spirit, we no longer have the luxury to simply believe what we are told to believe and do what we are told to do"<br /><br />Well, yes, but only very few people are capeable of discernment. That's why people have been compared to sheep who need a shepherd. Priests are those shepherds.<br /><br />Now there is a terrible lack of "priests". I do not use the term "priest" to simply refere to someone how was ordained, but merely to describe people who are able of discernment and help others to find their way to truth. Karlnoreply@blogger.com