tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post8228805768600066231..comments2024-03-28T00:17:55.823+00:00Comments on Bruce Charlton's Notions: The wrong choice of Gilbert Norrell - the crucial plot point in Jonathan Strange and Mr NorrellBruce Charltonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-82508520232520784432015-10-19T14:48:00.029+01:002015-10-19T14:48:00.029+01:00I'm probably going out on a limb, but Mark 5:6...I'm probably going out on a limb, but Mark 5:6 struck me as interesting in this context.<br /><br />"And he could there do no mighty work [because of their unbelief/lack of faith], save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them."<br /><br />I think the standard interpretation is that he simply chose not to, because it would at that point not be spiritually beneficial to his kinsfolk as they were already scandalized by his minor works. There are various translations, but the strong language struck me as perhaps implying that their faith itself was somehow linked to his actual ability to do miracles (or magic if you will), such as the woman who simply touched his cloak and was healed because her faith was so great. In a Mormon / magic context, it would be that their lack of faith actually <i>prevented</i> him from acting, because their individual and eternal intelligences were, in a very basic sense, actually rejecting to recognize his power and go-along with it (much as how the nature forces in the book had to recognize the Raven King's authority to do the greatest magic).<br /><br />Now of course, I think he could have still forced them, because he was the True King, but as Mormons suggest this would somehow undo reality or not be part of God's plan.<br /><br />(Perhaps it's two ways of saying the same thing?)Nathanielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04531664498277638757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-6485717255931733952015-09-10T17:38:51.064+01:002015-09-10T17:38:51.064+01:00Yes, I agree with your interpretation although I a...Yes, I agree with your interpretation although I am sure the author did not specifically intend it. But great works of genius are divinely inspired, to a significant extent, whatever the authors may state. <br /><br />Norell is redeemed by the end, when he tacitly acknowedges his love of the Raven King and also of Strange - I was moved by the aftermath of the confusion of ravens at Hurtfew, when instead of being worried by the damage to his library and books, Norrell is euphoric at having experienced the Raven Kings magic... "That I should live to see it, Mr Strange! That I should live to see it!"Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-82766834233024592702015-09-10T15:10:41.576+01:002015-09-10T15:10:41.576+01:00Sorry for saying "I disagree", I just di...Sorry for saying "I disagree", I just didn't fully understand your post. You're absolutely right.<br /><br />Do you agree that the book seems thoroughly Christian (or Mormon)? If God's power functions in a similar sense as English magic (though in a perfection that surpasses our knowledge), then the magician's quest is essentially theosis. That is, to be a true, good, and powerful magician one's knowledge is actually predicated on understand the relationships connecting all life.<br /><br />Mr. Norrell's flaw is then in dishonestly claiming he desires the resanctification of England, while only corrupts and abuses the power he's been given for personal gain (akin to a false, or turned prophet). Throughout the novel we find a thread of God working via mysterious means (including much sacrifice and suffering), and true knowledge is eventually restored to people - notably it is not <i>restricted to</i> Mr. Norrell's (religious?) books, or his (corrupted?) organization in alliance with secular ends, but exists as a living reality for all people to participate in.<br /><br />It seems exactly the sort of thing you've talked about before. That the restoration of Christianity would be a supernatural-inspired - perhaps grassroots or popular - movement inspired by the Holy Spirit.<br /><br />(My thought is that it reflects the idea that while churches contain the truth, if the leadership is corrupting or hiding that truth, we must recognize that Christianity is reality and the false teachers are not somehow controllers or limiters of what is truly "English magic" because Christianity is predicated on our lived reality, and understanding and knowing things as they truly are).Nathanielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04531664498277638757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-27281604372596651132015-09-10T13:47:25.488+01:002015-09-10T13:47:25.488+01:00Nathaniel. Im very pleased to hear that you respo...Nathaniel. Im very pleased to hear that you responded to it. I am still returning and rereading/ relistening to favourite bits. It has affected me more powerfully than any novel for years. I think that the reason is that, in some sense or meaning of the phrase, and in some fashion that I do not understand, the restoraton of English magic is something that I personally regard as a very high priority.Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-69759052729984787162015-09-10T00:47:42.105+01:002015-09-10T00:47:42.105+01:00Ah! I think my comment missed one of the most impo...Ah! I think my comment missed one of the most important/interesting aspects.<br /><br />The Mormon missionaries shared with me a belief (I don't know if it's orthodox?) that God's own power functions in virtually the exact same way as magic does in this book. The conception of magic is very mormon indeed! It is specifically as you described elsewhere, that all things are living/have identities, and that they willingly obey God (i.e. a magical alliance as in the book).<br /><br />I also did find the raven king and Childermass' longing for his return to be very Christ-like and reflected my own desire to know and serve the true King.Nathanielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04531664498277638757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-40589307207430436992015-09-10T00:41:25.798+01:002015-09-10T00:41:25.798+01:00I finally finished the book, and your other recent...I finally finished the book, and your other recent posts made me reflect and disagree slightly with this post.<br /><br />It seems Mr. Norrell's character is deeply flawed in a very Christian context - he completely and totally rejects love and relationships. He has no family, finds fault in Mr. Strange's marriage, and seeks out to destroy his competition rather than showing any sense of charity - no sense of desire to share the good, or to help others, or to actualize his stated mission: to restore English Magic.<br /><br />We might replace "magic" with "Christianity" or "God" and see the flaw there. He's rather trying to use magic/supernatural forces for his own completely selfish ends. He always corrupts his stated mission by making it impossible for others to seek out and understand magic. He attempts to hoard the magic (or love, or God) but is doing what is in that sense impossible - as magic (and love, and God) are founded on relationships - as especially reveled at the end of the book.<br /><br />Magic is all about alliances and relationships between natural forces, humans, faeries, etc. Mr. Norrell tries to hide, subvert, or misunderstand this fundamental essence of magic and use it merely as a tool (i.e. to "tame" Aslan, to make it respectiable, scientific, etc.) for personal gains, and then purposely deceives or lies to others that magic is merely that - a limited tool.<br /><br />...and then in the end everything only gets fixed as the various relations turn from interactions based on evil motive to good motive.<br /><br />I think the comparisons, parallels, and the rest could be drawn out much more, but I certainly see why the book greatly appealed to you based on your posts over the last couple years! Thank you for sharing, otherwise I probably would have never read it either.<br /><br />Nathanielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04531664498277638757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-80888711423074928072015-09-01T21:57:25.120+01:002015-09-01T21:57:25.120+01:00I especially like this passage in relation to the ...I especially like this passage in relation to the book (I've only read 1/3rd so far though):<br /><br />"But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee: and the birds of the air, and they shall tell thee. <br />Speak to the earth, and it shall answer thee: and the fishes of the sea shall tell." -- Job 12:7-8 Nathanielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04531664498277638757noreply@blogger.com