tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post8258891747677077629..comments2024-03-28T17:44:11.289+00:00Comments on Bruce Charlton's Notions: Understanding the purpose of mortal lifeBruce Charltonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-57586059496861903342016-08-16T15:19:40.888+01:002016-08-16T15:19:40.888+01:00For decades I struggled with the How, When, Where ...For decades I struggled with the How, When, Where and Why of life and God and everything. <br />I really tried to figure it all out, seeking answers everywhere. Why are we born? What is the purpose of suffering? What will happen to all those who die as infants? What of reicarnation? Is Hell for real? Etc. You all know the line of questions.<br /><br />Sometimes I thought I found a clever answer, but after a while it simply faded away or was struck by some serious anomaly. Every brilliant theory I came up with sooner or later fell apart like a house of cards.<br /><br />So finally, I gave up trying. I realised that I will never grasp it no matter how hard I try. This insight was a huge relief!<br /><br />Thus, I'm no longer tormented with endless, intellectual efforts to understand how the universe is actually organised. I don't have to. All I <i>really</i> need is to put my trust in the ultimate and supreme Goodness and Justice of God - through Christ. The rest is mere technicalities.<br /><br />/Nilrik, SwedenNilriknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-80918461635131456722014-02-12T21:41:04.157+00:002014-02-12T21:41:04.157+00:00@David - I find a great gulf between 'Eastern&...@David - I find a great gulf between 'Eastern' religion and Christianity. <br /><br />Reincarnation is not of the 'self'/ soul or human spirit as understood in the West - but something lesser that clothes itself in body after body. It is part-of a greater whole, but itself less-than an individual soul - which is why it has no memory. <br /><br />Buddhism or Hinduism is not going anywhere but round in circles, Christianity is directional, linear. Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-53043437756824019052014-02-11T21:14:26.478+00:002014-02-11T21:14:26.478+00:00@Bruce - Thank you for your replies. I have to say...@Bruce - Thank you for your replies. I have to say Christianity is winning me over again in many ways and I am finding my faith in God is growing day by day. I continue to ask for God to guide me in my life and to forgive me my sins so that I can come to know him better and to place him at the center of my life. Perhaps a post on repentance and what this exactly means might be useful for hopeful Christians? Also, specifically in relation to this post about the purpose of Mortal life I can't help but wonder about the traditional belief in reincarnation in Eastern belief systems such as Buddhism and Hinduism. It occurs to me that if there is proposed spiritual potential in 'theosis' as the purpose of mortal life that there are striking parallels with the Buddhist dharma/8 fold path and path of cultivating virtues such as generosity, joy, loving-kindness. More controversially, I seem to remember reading about the possibility that the doctrine of reincarnation had been removed from the Christian tradition historically because it was not expedient to political forces shaping the early church. Perhaps these claims are entirely bogus but I am by no means a learned archaeologist and I must confess potential ignorance on this point but I do often wonder about it nonetheless. What I do find interesting is the possibility of a soul incarnating as a human over several life times (in order to learn and develop spiritually) and a decision to come to Earth as a volunteer seem harmonious somehow (at least they do to me) with these persistent Eastern doctrines. In particular a book about Jesus's life by Deepak Chopra argues that Jesus might be regarded as a spiritually enlightened being or what might be considered a Boddhisattva in the Theravadan Buddhist tradition. I find aspects of these Eastern faiths hard to dismiss in preference for a belief in a single life and resurrection in heavenly life (assuming salvation)and so I am tentatively both a Christian and a Buddhist until I can resolve these kinds of conflict. Simply deciding that I would like to choose one version of events as true over another does not seem like a sufficiently robust reason to do so but they both seem credible at an intuitive level. I have asked God for guidance and so far the answer I am getting is that Earthly life is a spiritual school for the development of my soul but I cannot help wonder if the lesson of several lifetimes might be necessary to account for the vast gulf between the wise saints of human history and their rarity. I think one life would be quite sufficiently hard work for my tastes but I can't help but wonder why this belief in reincarnation seems so stubbornly natural and intuitive to me. I have found it similarly confusing to note that there are many 'Christians' arguing that the resurrection is symbolic as the attainment of a kind of enlightenment of the spiritually or 'theotically' advanced soul and that literal interpretations of resurrection as a physical event post-death are to misunderstand the ministry of Christ. These may be silly hypotheses to get hung up on but I feel I need to 'exorcise them' where appropriate if I am not to mislead myself in future. Thanks for your time in considering my posts it is appreciated. They feel a bit silly sometime when I read them back but they are hopefully helping me progress. Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-81052784464906630842014-02-06T10:45:37.161+00:002014-02-06T10:45:37.161+00:00@David S - Interestingly, I tend to think the oppo...@David S - Interestingly, I tend to think the opposite: that people of low intelligence would (like children) almost-never refuse Salvation; and it is those of high intelligence who are much more likely to do so, and apparently are apparently currently doing so in their multi-millions. <br /><br />In a nutshell, I believe that theosis depends on what choices we make in the situation in which we find-ourselves (which, to some extent, is a God-given situation, and to some extent is a result of accident and sin). Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-76578754793633706342014-02-06T10:33:24.405+00:002014-02-06T10:33:24.405+00:00@BC - Just a thought that bothers me? How do physi...@BC - Just a thought that bothers me? How do physical and intellectual disabilities fit into this grandiose scheme of theosis? It is appealing as you describe but it strikes me as an idiosyncratically intellectual conception. I'm not sure how someone with sub-normal IQ, with Downs Syndrome or Autism is endowed to limber up the theotic ladder that you hypothesise or are they exempt for some reason? <br /><br />Taking things a step further does this mean if they are saved (how an autistic person can make this informed theological decision to avoid damnation or engage in spiritual growth as you describe it also strikes me as a dilema) that the impediment of low iq in incarnate life is removed in the next so that if I were to meet them in heaven they would no longer have low iq or lack theory of mind? They would be emancipated somehow from the limitations of the flesh in mortal life? Does this mean those able to write on this post have a substantial theotic head start over such other souls? I find these kinds of consideration raise some problematic questions to the model you propose. But perhaps you can dispel them for me. Your thoughts on this would be interesting. Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-53342399064843304502014-01-27T12:45:05.310+00:002014-01-27T12:45:05.310+00:00@JC - sorry for misunderstanding you & thanks ...@JC - sorry for misunderstanding you & thanks for the additional explanation.George G.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-14240322057758107382013-02-27T05:07:54.309+00:002013-02-27T05:07:54.309+00:00@GG: You are reading some things into my comment ...@GG: You are reading some things into my comment that I did not mean to imply (though I don't blame you; I left a lot out). I don't know whether there is intercourse or reproduction in heaven at all. But I do believe that masculinity and femininity as we know them are reflections of heaven's much stronger versions of yin and yang, that the sexual polarity we feel in heaven will be even stronger than we feel on earth (especially in the English-speaking West, where sexual polarity has been all but abolished), and that the pleasure we obtain from that polarity in our interactions with each other will be immense. And while I think earthly intellectuals will experience heaven as hedonistic and "mostly about physical pleasure", I think earthly football players will experience heaven as unimaginably spiritual and intellectual. The point being that in heaven, we will be most surprised by the faculties we most suppressed on earth. Or to put it another way, <i>all</i> our chakras will be fully opened.<br /><br />@Red: I'm in the same boat as you. We try to use our strengths--the power of our intellects and our wills--to overcome or patch over our weaknesses. It doesn't work very well. You're absolutely right that it doesn't smell right to ordinary people. When we try to overthink our way through social interactions, they read the telltale tension in our faces and bodies, and they know instinctively they can't trust us to speak honestly from our limbic systems without corrupting everything through our cerebral cortexes. (I wish it had taken me fewer decades to figure this out.)<br />Jonathan Cnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-83240654569659795462013-02-26T23:31:29.157+00:002013-02-26T23:31:29.157+00:00This whole discussion is very good - thanks go out...This whole discussion is very good - thanks go out in particular to Arakawa - but for me it comes down to something that hit me with peculiar force just yesterday morning, and upon this very subject. I was driving through our neighbourhood, and suddenly, as so often happens, I was amazed at the glorious beauty of the trees. I thought, "This is why the resurrection of the body is so important, and why the angels will envy our experiences in Heaven as resurrected animal bodies: because as animals we will be able to see and taste and hear things that no other sort of being will be able to apprehend at all." <br /><br />It's like, what is it like to be a bat, and to be able to appreciate things using echolocation? I have no idea; but there must be something inherently good about it, quite apart from its instrumental usefulness, *or nature would not have exploited that niche.* If the niche had been *nothing but painful,* it's exploitation would have been uneconomical, and nature would not have gone there. Since it has, we may infer that there is something beautiful about living echolocatively, something that is inherently and forever and by definition obscure to us, in just the same way that animal existence is inaccessible to the angels.<br /><br />The answer to the question, “what good is embodied animal life,” then, is just like the answer to “why are there angels, and indeed choirs of angels?” or “why are there shrimp?” or “why are there planets?” It’s the notion of the Great Chain of Being that links together all that is in a pleroma, in which nothing is left out, or left unrepresented: that God would not omit to create any sort of good thing that he could create, that was compossible with the other things he creates. Kristorhttp://orthosphere.org/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-40526990164689537422013-02-25T12:00:10.253+00:002013-02-25T12:00:10.253+00:00Johnathan C, there's a lot to be said for your...Johnathan C, there's a lot to be said for your understanding of the intellectual temperament.<br /><br />I've spent much of my life trying to get into my body and achieve some balance because my natural tendency is to divorce from it.<br /><br />Indeed, one thing I have in common with all the people I've met who think similarly... We look to power over nations and institutions before physical power and pleasure.<br />We dream of getting transferred into supercomputers and leaving behind messy bodies forever.<br />A hate and fear of physical existence and living in the mind go together.<br />Or at least... the body becomes just a mechanical tool that performs necessary functions.<br /><br />In casual settings, whether dancing, playing team sports, or bowling, people do catch on immediately if you're not really comfortable in your fleshly form.<br />It makes dealings with "ordinary" people rather difficult. They can always "smell" something is not quite right.Red Lightninghttp://red-ginseng-store.myshopify.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-23092927083356021852013-02-24T19:59:44.696+00:002013-02-24T19:59:44.696+00:00@Mc - Indeed; but I still lack something important...@Mc - Indeed; but I still lack something important in my understanding of theosis in mortal life - why mortal life, why incarnate, what is it that *must* happen in mortal life (and not after, or before)?...Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-29696203534929731152013-02-24T17:54:12.267+00:002013-02-24T17:54:12.267+00:00The purpose, as you intuit and see with your reaso...The purpose, as you intuit and see with your reasoning mind, is theosis. In order to progress in theosis we must struggle against the temptation to do and be less than our purpose -- which to serve and love God "with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind..." Without the struggle, there is no choice. Without choice, there is no story. That is why we live in a world of shadow, where we can perceive Him only through faith, and trust, and after seeking Him (not before!)Matthew C.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-4583397746968974102013-02-24T17:02:34.570+00:002013-02-24T17:02:34.570+00:00Just a minor point about the portion of my specula...Just a minor point about the portion of my speculations Bruce was kind enough to excerpt in the actual article: the paragraph starting...<br /><br />"In some sense this is literally true, and not just a make-believe for the purpose of spiritual development...."<br /><br />actually immediately follows a quote by Fr. Seraphim Rose advising:<br /><br />"Don’t criticize or judge other people—regard everyone else as an angel, justify their mistakes and weaknesses, and condemn only yourself as the worst sinner. This is step one in any kind of spiritual life."<br /><br />That is the intended context for that paragraph, which is not visible in the excerpts -- I was trying to get into a viewpoint where this is made obvious to be <i>actually</i> true.<br /><br />I've also repented of a couple of points in my analogy between angelic and microbial beings. (None of those points are excerpted in the above article.)Arakawahttp://arakawa.github.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-64286385039626711222013-02-24T15:02:08.377+00:002013-02-24T15:02:08.377+00:00Jonathan - It is an interesting theory, but it rat...Jonathan - It is an interesting theory, but it rather sounds like a poor justification for over-socialization.<br /><br />Regarding your literally description of Heaven - it appears to be mostly about physical pleasure. Sexual intercourse primarily serves the purpose of reproduction. Your theory would mesh with the Mormon beliefs (that we literally make lots of children in Heaven), but are you arguing for that or just the idea that Heaven will be some sort of hedonistic dreamland?<br /><br />Because that's what we've tried to pursue in the materialistic sense here on earth, unlimited and easy access to sex, a very comfortable physical life, etc. We've already given up on our highest forms of intellectual and spiritual abilities in favor of physical pursuits.George Goerlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07916687977887167466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-27021139260596153512013-02-24T06:21:50.457+00:002013-02-24T06:21:50.457+00:00This is one of the problems of leaving theology in...This is one of the problems of leaving theology in the hands of intellectuals: intellectuals are famously out of touch with their bodies. For a lot of them, their body is just the carrying case for their brain. More ordinary people can instantly sense the limited vitality below the intellectual's neck (as opposed to the stomach-centered presence of the martial artist). No surprise they're not much attached to their dirty, inelegant bodies, rarely used well and prone to malfunctioning. Not to mention those inconvenient sexual feelings, which are a particular albatross to those in whom they are customarily thwarted.<br /><br />I've recently encountered the theory that thinking itself is usually a response to distress, that it's mostly harmful to social interaction, and that happy, social people who are getting their needs met are not prone to thinking much. Many of us intellectuals got that way because social awkwardness put us into chronic, 24/7 distress, which the body unsuccessfully tries to counteract by thinking. I'm rather quite enamored of this theory.<br /><br />I suspect in heaven, we'll experience ourselves primarily as bodies, spend more time playing with chi and chakras, be sexual to a degree we can hardly imagine now, and do a good deal less thinking. It will take a few millennia for the intellectuals to get used to it.Jonathan Cnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-24623014294090170472013-02-24T03:22:09.449+00:002013-02-24T03:22:09.449+00:00Should there be a special, ethereal heaven for the...Should there be a special, ethereal heaven for the sort of people who, in the name of some higher good than mere corporeal attachments, sell the gates of a city to the army besieging it? Why should such "objectivity" and "transcendence of mere tribalism" be rewarded better than they already are?<br /><br />Would it be a better universe if the One True God maintained a Heaven for the eternal benefit of such people? I'm not seeing it.Daybreakernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-15609246793292773642013-02-24T01:34:42.300+00:002013-02-24T01:34:42.300+00:00dl - What would that actually be like though? Why ...dl - What would that actually be like though? Why physical bodies, made to be fed nutrition, breath air, defecate, reproduce, etc.? Physical bodies seem completely unnecessary and even out-of-place in a timeless Heaven, unless we imagine it in a somewhat materialistic hedonist sense. It is possible many people did imagine it and desire such a sense, full of pleasure and free of disease, but for us living in a time of excessive material pleasure and absence of spiritual insight it seems quite odd.George Goerlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07916687977887167466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-84274591112148025842013-02-24T00:30:13.809+00:002013-02-24T00:30:13.809+00:00So in answer to "why should we have awkward, ...So in answer to "why should we have awkward, embarrassing, sweaty <i>embodied</i> life, when it would be so much better for us each to be just a drifting spirit', my answer is: the life of blood and 'seed' and sharing food together at the table and talking together is part of <i>us</i>. And <i>we</i> are good, <i>we</i> have a right to exist as <i>us</i> that is prior to all talk and all intellectual constructs. And for the many people who are so corrupted now that they would really rather be a disembodied spirit like Saruman at his very end, then as far as I'm concerned if they will not listen to sense and leave off being wicked and stop harming the shire, they can get what they want and blow away.Daybreakernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-58112849981534084672013-02-24T00:29:08.962+00:002013-02-24T00:29:08.962+00:00More harshly, if you want a meaningful life (befor...More harshly, if you want a meaningful life (before and after physical death), but it has to be within an intellectual construct that leaves out the good of your race and tribe: no! And that's good. That's the way it should be. That's not a flaw in the creator(s) of the universe. (Nor does it represent any lack of cleverness on your part.) There isn't supposed to be any meaningful life for people lacking in racial / tribal loyalty. It would not be a better universe if there was a better deal for people who thought, talked and acted as if they had no relatives.<br /><br />Positively, if you ask, "what is the meaning in a single human life that is not obviously meaningful, for example the life of someone aborted in the eighth month of life in modern America?" I would answer "what is the meaning of their nation? Or since 'nation' has been scrambled by 'multiculturalism' in modern America, what is the meaning of their race? Because they had a share in it, though it was small and cut short through the fault of others." And if your answer is, "but race and nation have no meaning", my answer is "that's what everyone is saying, but they are wrong and wicked. And I won't accept an obligation to justify the existence of entire races in terms of something else, such that if that something else was taken away I would have to say, 'OK, into the ash-heap of history with us'. Which is what is happening, but not with my approval."<br /><br />Ultimately Jesus hallowed, to whatever extent He could, something that had a right to exist anyway. He acknowledged what was good because it was good; it was not meaningless until He spoke, after which it became good.Daybreakernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-32497032154159639102013-02-24T00:20:32.163+00:002013-02-24T00:20:32.163+00:00Well, after that I felt an invitation to speculate...Well, after that I felt an invitation to speculate much more freely than I otherwise would allow myself. I wound up coming up with a fairly unconventional picture of the situation:<br /><br />http://nonapologia.tumblr.com/post/43846005462/brief-experimental-theology-of-heaven-and-earth<br /><br />In retrospect, I'm not sure if I managed to explain cogently why this view seems to me distinct from Universalism. Perhaps it isn't really distinct after all.Arakawahttp://arakawa.github.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-51766575869644710582013-02-24T00:15:19.916+00:002013-02-24T00:15:19.916+00:00An individualistic perspective on life, death, res...An individualistic perspective on life, death, resurrection and meaning is a choice, and I think a bad one, both morally and intellectually.<br /><br />It's a mistake we have a genetic inclination to make, because white people are exceptionally individualistic, and inclined to create culture that emphasizes individualism. (Compare the wisdom of Aesop's fables with the ferocious tribalism of Joshua.)<br /><br />But not everything we have an inclination to do is good or even excusable. It may be that your father was a drinker, and your grandfather was a drinker, and your great grandfather was a drinker, but nevertheless you should not be a drinker. You should accept with gratitude and the pride of one who rejoices in precious gifts the good parts of your genotype, but you should not try to fulfill every potential in the package.<br /><br />Life, death, resurrection and meaningful continuity are ultimately collective issues for tribes, nations and families connected primarily by physical descent, that is by genes, or in the language of the Bible by the "seed" of the founder(s) or "blood".<br /><br />If that's not a meaningful perspective for the individual, then that individual is in a sinful state. At Pesach, it is the evil child that asks, "what does this mean to you"? Even to inquire from an outsider's perspective is wicked.<br /><br />The search for a meaningful eternal life (with a mortal prologue) for an individual is hopeless. Practically, we can see that it's hopeless; the nation of blood can live forever, and in the case of Israel it does, while the individual lives on, if at all, only as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob do. But it's also hopeless because the individual state, with family, tribe, race and nation left out of the equation, is inherently empty.<br /><br />Meaning that lasts and deserves to last arises in communities of blood. According to the Old Testament, one people mattered. Then, according to the New Testament, Jesus said that all nations should be baptized to Him. That vastly increased the number of meaningful lives, or if you don't think Jesus is Lord it at least increases the number of lives that can be held to be meaningful within an originally Semitic religious framework.<br /><br />But it doesn't necessarily do so directly. I mean if you insist on stripping out the connections of blood and tribe (and sacred land for the children of Israel) that are meant to be there, and then you can't find the point of it all, maybe the fault is in you.<br /><br />I think if you can't see meaning in "a human life, any human life" conceived as a dot of light in a dark space, I think it's reasonable to answer: your inquiry is ill-formed. That's not a really human life. And you were wrong to think about the issue in such a "de-tribalized" way. And the nation that you are part of, your extended family, is probably also corrupt or sick, or you would not have been so intellectually adrift, so lacking in guidance and correction for your genetic fault of excessive proneness to individualism. And your concern, as a good and loyal son, should be to do what you can to heal that sickness and end that corruption.Daybreakernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-5934258292898494622013-02-23T18:44:28.218+00:002013-02-23T18:44:28.218+00:00Our physical bodies were intended to be immortal, ...Our physical bodies were intended to be immortal, but death came because of sin. In the recreated world we will be resurrected with physical bodies that are immortal, like the body that Jesus had after his resurrection. We do not live eternally as spirits after the deaths of our bodies; the idea of physical resurrection is downplayed in modern times because it seems too primitive, possibly too Catholic, but is central to Christianity. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com