tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post9148544943902729081..comments2024-03-28T17:16:24.038+00:00Comments on Bruce Charlton's Notions: The meaning of life, your life, is about becoming more divine: in fact *that* is the meaning of everything...Bruce Charltonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-59664080079785319802016-05-16T15:34:42.102+01:002016-05-16T15:34:42.102+01:00@William - I think the root of the problem for mai...@William - I think the root of the problem for mainstream (ie non-Mormon) Christians in the main churches is that God is supposed to be utterly different in kind from Men - he the creator, we the created etc. - so the divinization of man is hard to understand. Standard Trinitarian theory has Christ as mystically the same being as God the Father, so although he was a Man it is nonetheless hard to imaigine how we can be the same as him. <br /><br />In other words, many Christians feel it is blasphemously pride-full to talk in terms of Men becoming gods, because gods are infinitely lesser than God, which makes the whole thing hard to understand. Mainstream Christians are more convinced of monotheism (albeit mystical Trinitarian monotheism) than of theosis. <br /><br />In other words, Trinitarian monotheism makes it very difficult to imagine men becoming gods in any meaningful way - and for theosis to be meaningful also seems to entail that much of the process happens outwith mortal life (especially in post-mortal life) - which also raises concerns that this diminishes the importance of mortal life, the importance of being a Christian, the importance of the church etc. <br /><br />So - with all these complications and problems and worries - it does not surprise me that ideas of theosis/ divinization have failed to take root in most Christian denominations. <br /><br />Yet, it is the main purpose of existence! So something needs to change.Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-69780185379594353302016-05-16T14:36:35.097+01:002016-05-16T14:36:35.097+01:00Why be a saint if salvation, as in accepting the r...Why be a saint if salvation, as in accepting the reality of God, is all that's required? Jesus told us to be perfect so that's what we should strive to be. It's what we should be working towards anyway. Simply believing can never be a substitute for being. That's like a caterpillar saying 'Yes, I believe in butterflies!' but never growing wings. Not a very good example because caterpillars naturally become butterflies but you see what I mean. <br /><br />And you're right, the temptation to spiritual pride will be there right to the very end, and no doubt become stronger the more it is (so to speak) justified. William Wildbloodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13231219533755925897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-78692691951668010552016-05-16T13:43:04.026+01:002016-05-16T13:43:04.026+01:00@William. Glad you find it at least plausible. I h...@William. Glad you find it at least plausible. I have been puzzling over how to relate salvation and theosis/ divinization for about six years; and have only just reached what seems a sufficiently clear 'formulation' in this article. <br /><br />And, yes, you are right about evangelical Protestants - at least in theory. Our 'family' church is evangelical Protestant - it does tremendous work in many ways, and they are certainly real and serious Christians - but there is a kind of... what could I call it, uncertainty? about what to do after conversion (and presumed salvation). Of course there is prayer, and involvement in further evangelical activity - but it is unclear what exactly this is supposed to achieve beyond the fact of salvation, which has already been achieved. There is no belief in theosis as such, although there is sanctification which is somewhat similar in some ways. But there is no progress post-mortem (as the tree falls, so it lies... for eternity). It sometimes seems asif it is downhill all the way from the moment of being born-again - the rest of life seems like a series of hazards that may take this from you, but can't really take the individual any further or higher. <br /><br />I came across theosis (spiritual progression or exaltation) first in Mormonism and befoe I was a Christian (the above formulation is compatible with Mormon theology, although I think in practice Mormons are sometimes less confident of salvation than the theology implies - or, at least, they regard the highest form of Heaven (Celestial) as if it was the only Heaven (Kingdoms of Glory) - when the lower forms of Heaven (Terrestrial and Telestial) are still Heavenly by comparison with mortal life. So they are sometimes rather like Evangelicals but with respect to the Celestial Kingdom available only to Temple married ('sealed') Mormons - with its direct route to ultimate divinity. <br /><br />I then came across the Orthodox idea of theosis - which is related to the lives of celibate ascetic monks or nuns who - over decades of heroic striving - become Saints with their 'heads in Heaven and their Feet on earth' - and capable of miracles and wonders. But there is a strange 'Orthogonal' relationship between Orthodox salvation and theosis - such that even a person far advanced in theosis may, in a moment, lose it all (typically from spiritual pride) and be damned. Spiritual progress does not even seem to bring a higher resistance to damnation - almost it makes the person more vulnerable. So, there is not any very clear sense of salvaton and theosis being on the same scale. <br /><br />This posting is the first time I personally have been able to make satisfying sense if the two goals. Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4683970826895755480.post-47573864389700274962016-05-16T12:38:42.112+01:002016-05-16T12:38:42.112+01:00I really like the key distinction you draw between...I really like the key distinction you draw between salvation and divinization. Salvation is relatively meaningless in terms of our true goal which is to become godlike. As far as I can see this is where Evangelical Christianity falls down. It gets on the horse but doesn't see there's a race to be run!William Wildbloodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13231219533755925897noreply@blogger.com