Real bottom-up nationalism was a phenomenon of the late 19th and early 20th century - it was, indeed, the first attempt by developing nations to do without religion as the basis of social cohesion (specifically, it was the first post-Christianity ideology.
Instead of a common religion, the basis for social cohesion was intended to be racial and national identity - "blood and soil".
This early nationalism sometimes worked as a primary motivator, perhaps because it necessarily included a residue of common national religion (e.g. in Ireland, or Spain - where, for a while, nationalists ruled in collaboration with the Roman Catholic Church) - but this strength was always brief, and faded after a generation or so.
Since then (and this includes the post-empire forms); nationalism has been, like all other forms of mainstream politics, essentially a top-down, ruling-class-driven ideology.
Later nationalism was (and is) a "local elites" project.
That is; a matter of the local clerical and managerial class (often journalists, school teachers and clerks) trying to propagandize the masses to support their plans of fragmentation of a larger political unit, into smaller national groupings.
This fragmentation brought new career and other opportunities for the local elites - who had previously been kept-out of power by the larger-unit's leadership class.
But the bottom line is that such nationalism is just-another variant of Leftism: i.e. it is a type of secular materialism, with utilitarian values rooted in this-worldly hedonism (i.e. the claim to optimize human gratification - in this instance of indigenous members of the nation).
Nationalism nowadays shares the arbitrariness and incoherence of other Leftisms: it entails vast efforts of propaganda to be disseminated by media and education, and enforced by laws and the state bureaucracy.
It survives by pandering to the local elites, whose careers and status depend on sustaining the nationist fictions - however feeble.
What is more, in the past several decades nationalism has failed everywhere from Ireland to Iceland to sustain itself.
Indeed, even ideologically-"nationalist" leaders have in practice and overwhelmingly willingly and enthusiastically embraced the most destructive aspects of globalism, from self-subjection to multi-national groupings and agencies (EU, UN-WHO etc), assimilation into international finance and trade; and enforced native population subordination-to and replacement-by the necessarily destructive phenomenon of mass immigration.
Self-styled nationalism in 2025, such as that in Scotland, Australia, New Zealand; is merely a film of window-dressing applied to conceal some of the most globalist servile and native-population self-destructive even in our corrupted world!
Nationalism as of here-and-now is therefore a false and delusional hope - futile at best, but most likely just-another agent for the agendas of international totalitarianism and/or societal chaos leading towards WWIII.
11 comments:
this scene from Arrested Development i think captures perfectly the position of nationalists in the present day:
Tobias:
You know, Lindsay, as a therapist, I have advised... a number of couples to explore an open relationship where the couple remains emotionally committed but free to explore extramarital encounters.
Lindsay:
Well, did it work for those people?
Tobias:
No, it never does. I mean, these people somehow delude themselves into thinking it might, but... but it might work for us.
@Laeth - People who perceive what is coming; are absolutely desperate for a *political* solution - something they can join, organize, recruit-for, vote-for; and are clutching at straws of many kinds.
They really don't want to think about their proposals - quite the opposite: instead they want an answer: to be optimistic, to be publicly vigorous, take "action", become a leader - or find somebody to follow and believe-in.
It is all very understandable, but spiritually counter-productive.
oh yes, i think it's understandable. what is coming is very dark, unbelievably so, if one really stops to think about it. we have enough examples elsewhere of it already happening. and it is pretty much inevitable save for a miracle. but i'd rather believe in a miracle (an actual Godly intervention), even though i don't, than deluding myself about political solutions. i would say that is way more than spiritually counter productive. it's actually damning, because there IS something we must do, and focus on, and it is either or. at least, i believe it to be, because when i was focused on the political, i wasn't doing it.
Nationalism is not mutually exclusive with philosophy or religion, and it's fine to be a nationalist, but if you expect good political results, you are going to be dissapointed
@Hagel - We need more than one term - because "nationalism" is a modern political ideology; whereas something we might call "patriotism" was so normal and accepted as good in pre-modern societies, that they don't seem to have had a word for the concept.
What I find very striking is how common it is for English (and other British) people of the upper middle classes to be patriotic in their hearts, but to be (literally) *fanatically* pro-European Union - such that they regard positivity about the EU as a Litmus Test of basic morality.
Iceland is a more striking example. A nation built on patriotism and love of their language and culture - one big family... Joined the EU and embraced mass immigration and are well en route to national/ cultural (and de facto linguistic) annihilation, within one generation.
This is why I harp on so much about what is genuinely powerfully motivating - and what is not. Lifestyle beliefs - like "radical" politics, or modern Christianity - are spiritually-speaking (and to be blunt) "harmless but useless".
'We need more than one term - because "nationalism" is a modern political ideology; whereas something we might call "patriotism" was so normal and accepted as good in pre-modern societies, that they don't seem to have had a word for the concept.'
But now, we do need a word
@Hagel - Patriotism - " the feeling of loving your country more than any others and being proud of it" - (Cambridge Dictionary) - that's the right word, I would say.
But I am not only for my nation. Although I have a special love for some over others, I value bio-diversity, culture, and language in general. Does 'patriotism' capture that?
When a language, culture, and ethnicity - that is to say, a nation - dies out needlessly, it is generally a sad thing, even if it is not closely related to mine
@H - But why should anyone want a word for a particular mix of this-worldly hopes, which may be (probably are) unique to himself?
Some people are, however, keen to devise yet another "ism" (or a novel combination of "isms"), but this will only be yet another necessarily-Leftist ideology.
My this-worldly values are the same as my eternal ones, and are derived from my love for beauty. That is why I consider them significant.
(My) Patriotism and nationalism are expressions of the desire to live with an extended family, and of the way I enjoy creation's diversity.
@Hagel - But nationalism is a post-industrial revolution, top-down, atheist, political ideology; not an extended family/ clan/ tribe - the cohesive effect of genetic relatedness just does not spontaneously scale-up in that way.
As the terrible example of the collapse of Iceland shows. No other developed nation could be as genetically cohesive as Iceland. Iceland was one big extended family of c 300K people living around the edges of a small and isolated country, who all knew their relatedness to each other - yet they have collapsed into extreme totalitarian convergence and chaos, just like everybody else.
Since Iceland failed so effortlessly, the idea that nationalism could succeed somewhere like the US, UK, or France is risible.
Self-styled nationalist parties in 2025 (including DT's nation-first lying nonsense in the USA) are just another elite manipulation and redirection of hope and dissipation of effort; coming from within the Establishment...
Part of a fake Punch and Judy opposition (both puppets controlled by the same entity). The only "beneficiaries" are careerist nationalist pseudo-leaders and their minions.
But all this should be obvious - if people weren't so easily misled by their own desperation into clutching at fake straws.
https://charltonteaching.blogspot.com/2024/02/clutching-at-fake-straws.html
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